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  #21   Report Post  
Old April 8th 04, 04:19 AM
José de Paula
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.

Em Thu, 08 Apr 2004 01:39:06 +0100, Juha Kettunen escreveu:


"Michael Wäsch" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Why on earth have Kasparov and Kramnik had so bad difficulties in their
matches against top-level chess programs then?

Because they did not play blitz.


maybe they use wrong tactics against computers. You need to play certain way
to win computers.


Yup, you must try and trap the computer

--
José de Paula Rodrigues Neto Assis Linux User 175920
Brasília - DF - Brasil counter.li.org

  #22   Report Post  
Old April 8th 04, 05:32 AM
Ralph Jones
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.

Please humor some of us and post a PGN of a game where you beat Shredder or
any other top engine with this strategy. Without it, I'm finding it hard
to believe.


Juha Kettunen wrote:


"NoKetch" wrote in message
...
Why on earth have Kasparov and Kramnik had so bad difficulties in

their
matches against top-level chess programs then?
Because they did not play blitz.

maybe they use wrong tactics against computers. You need to play certain

way
to win computers.


You are a 1600 rated player and know more than Kasparov and Kramnik? LOL


dont take me wrong ,,,, try to understand my point ...


  #23   Report Post  
Old April 8th 04, 07:52 AM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.


"Ralph Jones" wrote in message
...
Please humor some of us and post a PGN of a game where you beat Shredder

or
any other top engine with this strategy. Without it, I'm finding it hard
to believe.


ok, so my rating is about 1600. Here are 3 interesting examples:
1) win against Shredder 8
2) a draw against Shredder 8 (I have many draws against it)
3) win against Hera (rating 2541 on FISC). Note, that I have beaten Hera
many times ...!!

all are blitz games (5 min I think):

[Event "Blitz:5'"]
[Site "London, Walthamstow"]
[Date "2004.04.03"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Kettunen, Juha"]
[Black "Shredder 8"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]
[Annotator "Kettunen,Juha"]
[PlyCount "502"]
[TimeControl "300"]

{256MB, Shredder8.ctg, JUHA} 1. d4 {[%emt 0:00:00]} d5 {[%emt 0:00:00]} 2.
e3 {
[%emt 0:00:01]} Bf5 {[%emt 0:00:00]} 3. f4 {[%emt 0:00:01]} e6 {
[%eval -40,14] [%emt 0:00:12]} 4. Nf3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Nf6 {[%emt 0:00:00]}
5.
c3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} a5 {[%eval -4,12] [%emt 0:00:13]} 6. Bd3 {[%emt
0:00:01]}
g6 {[%eval 26,11] [%emt 0:00:08]} 7. Qc2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bg7 {
[%eval -11,12] [%emt 0:00:08]} 8. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} c5 {
[%eval -1,12] [%emt 0:00:16]} 9. O-O {[%emt 0:00:02]} Nc6 {
[%eval 0,12] [%emt 0:00:07]} 10. g3 {[%emt 0:00:17]} h5 {
[%eval -44,10] [%emt 0:00:09]} 11. h4 {[%emt 0:00:10]} Bxd3 {
[%eval -120,10] [%emt 0:00:06]} 12. Qxd3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qb6 {
[%eval -96,12] [%emt 0:00:10]} 13. Rf2 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Ne7 {
[%eval -165,12] [%emt 0:00:10]} 14. Rg2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ng4 {
[%eval -142,11] [%emt 0:00:05]} 15. Nbd2 {[%emt 0:00:06]} Nf5 {
[%eval -179,12] [%emt 0:00:05]} 16. Nf1 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Rg8 {
[%eval -156,11] [%emt 0:00:08]} 17. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:08]} Qc6 {
[%eval -148,11] [%emt 0:00:09]} 18. Qc2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} O-O-O {
[%eval -183,11] [%emt 0:00:05]} 19. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Kb8 {
[%eval -180,11] [%emt 0:00:06]} 20. Qc2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qa6 {
[%eval -204,10] [%emt 0:00:08]} 21. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Qb6 {
[%eval -176,12] [%emt 0:00:05]} 22. Qc2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Qc7 {
[%eval -195,10] [%emt 0:00:05]} 23. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qc6 {
[%eval -172,10] [%emt 0:00:08]} 24. Qd2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rc8 {
[%eval -189,10] [%emt 0:00:09]} 25. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qb6 {
[%eval -204,10] [%emt 0:00:05]} 26. Qd2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Nf6 {
[%eval -206,10] [%emt 0:00:07]} 27. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qc7 {
[%eval -193,10] [%emt 0:00:05]} 28. Qd2 {[%emt 0:00:04]} c4 {
[%eval -208,11] [%emt 0:00:06]} 29. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} a4 {
[%eval -196,11] [%emt 0:00:03]} 30. a3 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Rcf8 {
[%eval -283,11] [%emt 0:00:03]} 31. Qd2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bh6 {
[%eval -294,13] [%emt 0:00:04]} 32. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qb6 {
[%eval -283,11] [%emt 0:00:03]} 33. Qc2 {[%emt 0:00:05]} Qb5 {
[%eval -287,13] [%emt 0:00:06]} 34. Bd2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Re8 {
[%eval -298,12] [%emt 0:00:05]} 35. Be1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bg7 {
[%eval -255,11] [%emt 0:00:05]} 36. Rd1 {[%emt 0:00:06]} Rgf8 {
[%eval -256,10] [%emt 0:00:03]} 37. Rdd2 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Ka8 {
[%eval -261,11] [%emt 0:00:04]} 38. Rde2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bh6 {
[%eval -234,11] [%emt 0:00:03]} 39. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Nd6 {
[%eval -242,10] [%emt 0:00:03]} 40. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Rd8 {
[%eval -230,12] [%emt 0:00:02]} 41. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {
[%eval -232,11] [%emt 0:00:03]} 42. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ng4 {
[%eval -233,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 43. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:06]} Qa5 {
[%eval -244,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 44. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb8 {
[%eval -240,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 45. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kc8 {
[%eval -244,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 46. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qa7 {
[%eval -247,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 47. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bh6 {
[%eval -242,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 48. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb8 {
[%eval -243,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 49. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qa6 {
[%eval -244,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 50. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qa7 {
[%eval -243,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 51. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -240,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 52. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {
[%eval -247,10] [%emt 0:00:00]} 53. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rde8 {
[%eval -245,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 54. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd8 {
[%eval -247,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 55. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -243,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 56. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rgf8 {
[%eval -245,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 57. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qa6 {
[%eval -243,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 58. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Qb5 {
[%eval -258,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 59. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rce8 {
[%eval -248,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 60. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -265,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 61. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ne4 {
[%eval -253,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 62. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kc8 {
[%eval -253,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 63. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Kb8 {
[%eval -245,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 64. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kc8 {
[%eval -252,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 65. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Nd6 {
[%eval -241,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 66. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rgf8 {
[%eval -252,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 67. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rd8 {
[%eval -249,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 68. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rde8 {
[%eval -252,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 69. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bh6 {
[%eval -247,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 70. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb8 {
[%eval -245,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 71. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -249,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 72. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {
[%eval -251,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 73. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf8 {
[%eval -251,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 74. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} f5 {
[%eval -251,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 75. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ne4 {
[%eval -236,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 76. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Be7 {
[%eval -253,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 77. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rgf8 {
[%eval -247,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 78. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf6 {
[%eval -254,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 79. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Be7 {
[%eval -254,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 80. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -254,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 81. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bd8 {
[%eval -248,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 82. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ba5 {
[%eval -256,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 83. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Kc8 {
[%eval -249,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 84. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bb6 {
[%eval -253,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 85. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb8 {
[%eval -248,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 86. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd8 {
[%eval -250,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 87. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rh8 {
[%eval -245,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 88. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rhg8 {
[%eval -248,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 89. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bc7 {
[%eval -240,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 90. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -254,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 91. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bd6 {
[%eval -245,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 92. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Be7 {
[%eval -248,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 93. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rge8 {
[%eval -252,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 94. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf6 {
[%eval -255,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 95. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {
[%eval -254,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 96. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -251,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 97. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rcd8 {
[%eval -250,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 98. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ka8 {
[%eval -249,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 99. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -250,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 100. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rce8 {
[%eval -253,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 101. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb8 {
[%eval -254,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 102. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -249,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 103. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rh8 {
[%eval -247,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 104. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rhe8 {
[%eval -248,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 105. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rcd8 {
[%eval -244,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 106. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -253,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 107. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kc8 {
[%eval -248,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 108. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rdf8 {
[%eval -247,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 109. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd8 {
[%eval -244,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 110. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rdf8 {
[%eval -245,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 111. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Re8 {
[%eval -241,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 112. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb8 {
[%eval -250,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 113. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd8 {
[%eval -246,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 114. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rh8 {
[%eval -248,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 115. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ka8 {
[%eval -252,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 116. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -247,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 117. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rb8 {
[%eval -250,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 118. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rhe8 {
[%eval -247,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 119. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rf8 {
[%eval -242,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 120. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rfe8 {
[%eval -245,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 121. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ka7 {
[%eval -224,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 122. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ra8 {
[%eval -219,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 123. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rad8 {
[%eval -217,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 124. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} b6 {
[%eval -180,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 125. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -222,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 126. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb7 {
[%eval -226,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 127. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qc6 {
[%eval -221,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 128. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qb5 {
[%eval -217,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 129. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rcd8 {
[%eval -218,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 130. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rb8 {
[%eval -214,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 131. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rbc8 {
[%eval -215,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 132. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ka7 {
[%eval -213,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 133. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qc6 {
[%eval -212,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 134. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Red8 {
[%eval -213,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 135. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qb5 {
[%eval -219,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 136. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qa5 {
[%eval -219,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 137. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rh8 {
[%eval -224,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 138. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb7 {
[%eval -222,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 139. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rhd8 {
[%eval -223,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 140. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rb8 {
[%eval -224,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 141. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -218,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 142. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rbc8 {
[%eval -209,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 143. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ka7 {
[%eval -214,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 144. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb7 {
[%eval -211,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 145. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rb8 {
[%eval -213,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 146. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ka7 {
[%eval -217,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 147. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qb5 {
[%eval -218,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 148. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rbe8 {
[%eval -214,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 149. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qc6 {
[%eval -223,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 150. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rgf8 {
[%eval -212,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 151. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qb5 {
[%eval -218,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 152. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Rh8 {
[%eval -211,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 153. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ref8 {
[%eval -212,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 154. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rhg8 {
[%eval -214,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 155. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Re8 {
[%eval -212,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 156. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qc6 {
[%eval -215,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 157. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qd7 {
[%eval -215,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 158. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Nd6 {
[%eval -223,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 159. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ne4 {
[%eval -208,11] [%emt 0:00:00]} 160. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rh8 {
[%eval -218,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 161. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Kb7 {
[%eval -217,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 162. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rhf8 {
[%eval -224,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 163. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qb5 {
[%eval -269,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 164. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qa5 {
[%eval -222,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 165. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qb5 {
[%eval -269,1] [%emt 0:00:00]} 166. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf6 {
[%eval -221,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 167. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -262,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 168. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kc7 {
[%eval -272,1] [%emt 0:00:00]} 169. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kc8 {
[%eval -247,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 170. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kd8 {
[%eval -216,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 171. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kc7 {
[%eval -220,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 172. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rgf8 {
[%eval -194,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 173. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qb3 {
[%eval -195,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 174. Qxb3 {[%emt 0:00:04]} axb3 {
[%eval -165,15] [%emt 0:00:00]} 175. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Kd7 {
[%eval -188,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 176. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Be7 {
[%eval -194,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 177. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -200,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 178. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf8 {
[%eval -191,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 179. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Be7 {
[%eval -191,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 180. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bd6 {
[%eval -181,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 181. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rh8 {
[%eval -187,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 182. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rhf8 {
[%eval -212,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 183. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bc7 {
[%eval -190,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 184. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bd6 {
[%eval -191,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 185. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ke7 {
[%eval -187,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 186. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kf7 {
[%eval -205,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 187. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Be7 {
[%eval -204,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 188. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd8 {
[%eval -217,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 189. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -207,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 190. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rfe8 {
[%eval -215,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 191. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} b5 {
[%eval -210,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 192. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bd6 {
[%eval -196,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 193. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rcd8 {
[%eval -231,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 194. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rb8 {
[%eval -200,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 195. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bf8 {
[%eval -202,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 196. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {
[%eval -203,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 197. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rbc8 {
[%eval -210,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 198. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Red8 {
[%eval -196,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 199. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rf8 {
[%eval -190,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 200. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rfe8 {
[%eval -214,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 201. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rb8 {
[%eval -215,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 202. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rbd8 {
[%eval -211,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 203. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ke7 {
[%eval -195,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 204. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kd7 {
[%eval -199,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 205. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -187,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 206. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rde8 {
[%eval -187,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 207. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd8 {
[%eval -188,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 208. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ra8 {
[%eval -183,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 209. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rgf8 {
[%eval -186,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 210. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rae8 {
[%eval -185,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 211. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -182,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 212. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rfe8 {
[%eval -189,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 213. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rcd8 {
[%eval -201,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 214. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Re7 {
[%eval -184,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 215. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -182,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 216. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ree8 {
[%eval -187,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 217. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ke7 {
[%eval -192,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 218. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Red8 {
[%eval -224,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 219. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ra8 {
[%eval -195,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 220. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kf7 {
[%eval -204,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 221. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf8 {
[%eval -207,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 222. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bd6 {
[%eval -222,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 223. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Re8 {
[%eval -230,1] [%emt 0:00:00]} 224. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bc7 {
[%eval -229,1] [%emt 0:00:00]} 225. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rad8 {
[%eval -209,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 226. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ra8 {
[%eval -229,1] [%emt 0:00:00]} 227. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kg7 {
[%eval -197,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 228. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bd6 {
[%eval -198,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 229. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rac8 {
[%eval -225,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 230. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ra8 {
[%eval -184,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 231. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rac8 {
[%eval -225,1] [%emt 0:00:00]} 232. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Red8 {
[%eval -183,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 233. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kf7 {
[%eval -199,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 234. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf8 {
[%eval -209,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 235. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rb8 {
[%eval -155,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 236. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {
[%eval -205,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 237. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Re8 {
[%eval -188,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 238. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf6 {
[%eval -190,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 239. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ra8 {
[%eval -232,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 240. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ra6 {
[%eval -187,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 241. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} b4 {
[%eval -90,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 242. cxb4 {[%emt 0:00:03]} c3 {
[%eval -90,12] [%emt 0:00:00]} 243. Bxc3 {[%emt 0:00:11]} Nxc3 {
[%eval -72,15] [%emt 0:00:00]} 244. bxc3 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Rc8 {
[%eval -57,15] [%emt 0:00:00]} 245. Rb2 {[%emt 0:00:17]} Rxc3 {
[%eval -149,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 246. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:14]} Rxa3 {
[%eval -223,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 247. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Ra4 {
[%eval -345,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 248. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Nxe3 {
[%eval -445,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 249. Nxe3 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Rxe3 {
[%eval -462,13] [%emt 0:00:00]} 250. Ne5+ {[%emt 0:00:10]} Bxe5 {
[%eval -475,18] [%emt 0:00:00]} 251. dxe5 {[%emt 0:00:09]} Rxb4 {
[%eval -485,19] [%emt 0:00:00]} 1-0

2.)

[Event "Blitz:5'"]
[Site "London, Walthamstow"]
[Date "2004.04.01"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Kettunen, Juha"]
[Black "Shredder 8"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "D00"]
[Annotator "Kettunen,Juha"]
[PlyCount "293"]
[TimeControl "300"]

{128MB, Shredder8.ctg, JUHA} 1. d4 {[%emt 0:00:00]} d5 {[%emt 0:00:00]} 2.
f4 {
[%emt 0:00:01]} Nf6 {[%emt 0:00:00]} 3. e3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bf5 {[%emt
0:00:00]
} 4. Nf3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} e6 {[%emt 0:00:00]} 5. Bd3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} c5 {
[%emt 0:00:00]} 6. c3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Be7 {[%eval -6,11] [%emt 0:00:07]} 7.
Qc2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Bxd3 {[%eval -23,11] [%emt 0:00:07]} 8. Qxd3 {
[%emt 0:00:01]} Qb6 {[%eval -25,12] [%emt 0:00:07]} 9. Nbd2 {[%emt 0:00:01]}
Qa6 {[%eval -25,13] [%emt 0:00:09]} 10. Qxa6 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Nxa6 {
[%eval -27,13] [%emt 0:00:02]} 11. O-O {[%emt 0:00:03]} Rc8 {
[%eval -36,13] [%emt 0:00:06]} 12. Nb3 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Ne4 {
[%eval -41,13] [%emt 0:00:04]} 13. Re1 {[%emt 0:00:06]} O-O {
[%eval -48,12] [%emt 0:00:07]} 14. g3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Nd6 {
[%eval -94,13] [%emt 0:00:12]} 15. Nbd2 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Bf6 {
[%eval -79,12] [%emt 0:00:06]} 16. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rfd8 {
[%eval -95,12] [%emt 0:00:05]} 17. Rg2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} b5 {
[%eval -103,13] [%emt 0:00:11]} 18. a3 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Rc6 {
[%eval -94,12] [%emt 0:00:07]} 19. Nb3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rdc8 {
[%eval -101,12] [%emt 0:00:07]} 20. Rb1 {[%emt 0:00:08]} Rd8 {
[%eval -84,13] [%emt 0:00:10]} 21. Kf1 {[%emt 0:00:05]} Nc4 {
[%eval -106,13] [%emt 0:00:10]} 22. Re2 {[%emt 0:00:09]} Nd6 {
[%eval -92,12] [%emt 0:00:09]} 23. Ne1 {[%emt 0:00:06]} Be7 {
[%eval -99,12] [%emt 0:00:08]} 24. Nf3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rcc8 {
[%eval -93,12] [%emt 0:00:06]} 25. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} f6 {
[%eval -91,12] [%emt 0:00:06]} 26. Bd2 {[%emt 0:00:07]} c4 {
[%eval -131,15] [%emt 0:00:07]} 27. Nc1 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Nc7 {
[%eval -154,14] [%emt 0:00:05]} 28. Be1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} a6 {
[%eval -151,13] [%emt 0:00:04]} 29. Rg2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Ne4 {
[%eval -147,12] [%emt 0:00:03]} 30. Nd2 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Nxd2 {
[%eval -167,15] [%emt 0:00:04]} 31. Rxd2 {[%emt 0:00:06]} Ne8 {
[%eval -158,15] [%emt 0:00:06]} 32. Rg2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Nd6 {
[%eval -170,15] [%emt 0:00:05]} 33. Kf1 {[%emt 0:00:05]} f5 {
[%eval -189,14] [%emt 0:00:05]} 34. Ne2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rb8 {
[%eval -176,13] [%emt 0:00:04]} 35. h4 {[%emt 0:00:08]} Rf8 {
[%eval -179,14] [%emt 0:00:05]} 36. Ng1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} h5 {
[%eval -173,14] [%emt 0:00:03]} 37. Nf3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rfc8 {
[%eval -166,14] [%emt 0:00:03]} 38. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Kf7 {
[%eval -174,13] [%emt 0:00:03]} 39. Rc1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ne4 {
[%eval -185,13] [%emt 0:00:04]} 40. Rcc2 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Bf6 {
[%eval -203,13] [%emt 0:00:03]} 41. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} g6 {
[%eval -208,13] [%emt 0:00:04]} 42. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bg7 {
[%eval -212,13] [%emt 0:00:04]} 43. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ke7 {
[%eval -203,13] [%emt 0:00:03]} 44. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} a5 {
[%eval -213,13] [%emt 0:00:05]} 45. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Kd7 {
[%eval -213,12] [%emt 0:00:05]} 46. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} a4 {
[%eval -203,13] [%emt 0:00:04]} 47. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bf6 {
[%eval -206,13] [%emt 0:00:05]} 48. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ke7 {
[%eval -207,12] [%emt 0:00:01]} 49. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rf8 {
[%eval -209,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 50. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kf7 {
[%eval -209,12] [%emt 0:00:01]} 51. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kg7 {
[%eval -207,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 52. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rbd8 {
[%eval -209,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 53. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -204,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 54. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kf7 {
[%eval -206,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 55. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ke7 {
[%eval -206,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 56. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {
[%eval -209,12] [%emt 0:00:01]} 57. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kd7 {
[%eval -213,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 58. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ke7 {
[%eval -209,12] [%emt 0:00:01]} 59. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rgf8 {
[%eval -207,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 60. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Nf6 {
[%eval -209,12] [%emt 0:00:01]} 61. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Kd6 {
[%eval -205,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 62. Rce2 {[%emt 0:00:15]} Ne4 {
[%eval -208,12] [%emt 0:00:01]} 63. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Kd7 {
[%eval -197,15] [%emt 0:00:00]} 64. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rc8 {
[%eval -209,12] [%emt 0:00:01]} 65. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rfe8 {
[%eval -198,12] [%emt 0:00:01]} 66. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rb8 {
[%eval -208,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 67. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rec8 {
[%eval -200,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 68. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ke7 {
[%eval -206,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 69. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rb6 {
[%eval -201,10] [%emt 0:00:00]} 70. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf6 {
[%eval -212,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 71. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {
[%eval -202,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 72. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd6 {
[%eval -210,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 73. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc7 {
[%eval -200,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 74. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rb7 {
[%eval -207,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 75. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd8 {
[%eval -200,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 76. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ra8 {
[%eval -210,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 77. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd7 {
[%eval -200,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 78. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd6 {
[%eval -209,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 79. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd7 {
[%eval -203,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 80. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf6 {
[%eval -208,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 81. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rdd8 {
[%eval -199,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 82. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kf7 {
[%eval -212,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 83. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -199,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 84. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rab8 {
[%eval -214,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 85. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {
[%eval -202,10] [%emt 0:00:00]} 86. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf6 {
[%eval -214,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 87. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bd8 {
[%eval -203,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 88. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ke7 {
[%eval -208,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 89. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bc7 {
[%eval -206,10] [%emt 0:00:00]} 90. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rbe8 {
[%eval -219,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 91. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bd6 {
[%eval -206,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 92. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kd7 {
[%eval -206,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 93. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bb8 {
[%eval -191,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 94. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rgf8 {
[%eval -182,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 95. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Nf6 {
[%eval -176,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 96. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:03]} b4 {
[%eval -36,11] [%emt 0:00:01]} 97. cxb4 {[%emt 0:00:21]} Kc6 {
[%eval -73,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 98. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ng4+ {
[%eval -77,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 99. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bd6 {
[%eval -91,10] [%emt 0:00:00]} 100. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Kb5 {
[%eval -94,10] [%emt 0:00:00]} 101. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rb8 {
[%eval -108,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 102. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Nf6 {
[%eval -98,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 103. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rb6 {
[%eval -90,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 104. Kh2 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ng4+ {
[%eval -98,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 105. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rf7 {
[%eval -98,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 106. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Nf6 {
[%eval -97,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 107. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Re7 {
[%eval -93,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 108. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Re8 {
[%eval -93,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 109. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ng4 {
[%eval -109,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 110. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Nf6 {
[%eval -93,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 111. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ng4 {
[%eval -88,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 112. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Re7 {
[%eval -86,10] [%emt 0:00:00]} 113. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Reb7 {
[%eval -100,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 114. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Nf6 {
[%eval -89,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 115. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kc6 {
[%eval -86,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 116. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ne4 {
[%eval -98,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 117. Rc2 {[%emt 0:00:05]} Rb8 {
[%eval -74,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 118. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Kb5 {
[%eval -71,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 119. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Nf6 {
[%eval -78,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 120. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} R6b7 {
[%eval -71,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 121. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ng4 {
[%eval -72,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 122. Rge2 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Nf6 {
[%eval -59,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 123. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Kc6 {
[%eval -58,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 124. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kd7 {
[%eval -58,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 125. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ng4 {
[%eval -65,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 126. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ke7 {
[%eval -57,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 127. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bc7 {
[%eval -67,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 128. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Nf6 {
[%eval -67,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 129. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rb5 {
[%eval -70,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 130. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} R8b7 {
[%eval -69,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 131. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bb8 {
[%eval -71,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 132. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kd7 {
[%eval -59,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 133. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bc7 {
[%eval -60,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 134. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ne4 {
[%eval -65,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 135. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Bb8 {
[%eval -59,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 136. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ke8 {
[%eval -55,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 137. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bd6 {
[%eval -59,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 138. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kf7 {
[%eval -74,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 139. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kg7 {
[%eval -70,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 140. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Be7 {
[%eval -67,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 141. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf6 {
[%eval -66,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 142. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Kf7 {
[%eval -62,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 143. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} R7b6 {
[%eval -49,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 144. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ra6 {
[%eval -28,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 145. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ke8 {
[%eval -3,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 146. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kf7 {
[%eval 0,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 147. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} 1/2-1/2

3)


[Event "ICS Game"]
[Site "ICS"]
[Date "2004.04.02"]
[White "jpkettu"]
[Black "Hera"]
[WhiteElo "1604"]
[BlackElo "2514"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. d4 d5 2. f4 Bf5 3. e3 Nf6 4. Nf3 e6 5. Bd3 c5 6. c3 Nc6 7. Qc2 Bxd3 8.
Qxd3
Bd6 9. O-O O-O 10. g3 Ne4 11. Re1 f5 12. Nbd2 Rc8 13. Re2 Qd7 14. Rg2 c4 15.
Qe2
b5 16. a3 g6 17. Nf1 h6 18. h4 a5 19. Bd2 Rc7 20. Be1 Rb7 21. Qc2 Qe8 22.
Kh1
Rb8 23. Kg1 Kh8 24. Kh1 Kh7 25. Qd1 Nf6 26. Qc2 Bc7 27. Qd1 Kg8 28. Kg1 Bd6
29. Qc2 Rb7 30. Qd1 Kh8 31. Kh1 Rb8 32. Qc2 Bc7 33. Qd1 Kg7 34. Qc2 Kg8 35.
Kg1
Qd7 36. Qd1 Rfe8 37. Qc2 Red8 38. Qd1 Rf8 39. Qc2 Rbd8 40. Qd1 Ra8 41. Qc2
Rfe8 42. Qd1 a4 43. Qc2 Bb6 44. Kh1 Rec8 45. Qe2 Ra7 46. Kh2 Rac7 47. Kh1
Qg7 48. Rc1 Nd8 49. Rc2 Nf7 50. Rd2 Ne4 51. Rc2 Ra7 52. Kg1 Rcc7 53. Kh1 Ra8
54. Kg1 Rd7 55. N1h2 Rda7 56. Nf1 Rd8 57. N1h2 Rf8 58. Nf1 Rfa8 59. N1h2 Qh7
60. Nf1 Rd8 61. N1h2 Rc8 62. Nf1 Qg7 63. N1h2 Rac7 64. Nf1 Re7 65. N1h2 Rce8
66. Nf1 Ra7 67. N1h2 Nf6 68. Nf1 Rc7 69. N1h2 Rcc8 70. Nf1 Re7 71. N1h2 Rce8
72. Nf1 Ra8 73. N1h2 Qh7 74. Nf1 Rc7 75. N1h2 Ne4 76. Nf1 Qg7 77. N1h2 Rcc8
78. Nf1 Rcb8 79. N1h2 Bc7 80. Nf1 Ba5 81. N1h2 Bb6 82. Nf1 Nf6 83. N1h2 Re8
84. Kh1 Rac8 85. Nf1 Rc7 86. N1h2 Rce7 87. Nf1 Rb7 88. N1h2 Ra7 89. Nf1 Rea8
90. N1h2 Qh7 91. Nf1 Ra6 92. N1h2 h5 93. Nf1 Qg7 94. Kg1 R6a7 95. Kh1 Re8
96. N1h2 Rae7 97. Nf1 Rc7 98. N1h2 Rcc8 99. Qf1 Bc7 100. Rge2 Ra8 101. Qg2
Ne4 102. Nf1 Red8 103. Kg1 Ra6 104. Kh1 Rc8 105. Kg1 Rb8 106. Rc1 Rba8 107.
Ra1
Kh7 108. Kh1 Qf8 109. Kg1 Kg8 110. Kh1 Qe8 111. Kg1 Qe7 112. Kh1 Kh8 113.
Kg1
R6a7 114. Kh1 Bb6 115. Kg1 Kg8 116. Kh1 Qd7 117. Kg1 Qc8 118. Kh1 Qc6 119.
Kg1
Kg7 120. Kh1 Qc7 121. Kg1 Rc8 122. Kh1 Kg8 123. Kg1 Raa8 124. Bf2 Kh7 125.
Be1
Qe7 126. N3d2 Nf6 127. Nf3 Kg8 128. N1d2 Ng4 129. Nxc4 bxc4 130. Bf2 Rcb8
131. Kh1 1-0


  #24   Report Post  
Old April 8th 04, 07:59 AM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.


"Ralph Jones" wrote in message
...
Please humor some of us and post a PGN of a game where you beat Shredder

or
any other top engine with this strategy. Without it, I'm finding it hard
to believe.


Its kind of funny (those ratings..), isnt it, if you look at the heading of
the pgn against Hera:

[White "jpkettu"]
[Black "Hera"]
[WhiteElo "1604"]
[BlackElo "2514"]
[Result "1-0"]

heh heh .

This game was played on FISC, so you can check it from there as well.


  #25   Report Post  
Old April 8th 04, 08:02 AM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.


"Juha Kettunen" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"Ralph Jones" wrote in message
...
Please humor some of us and post a PGN of a game where you beat Shredder

or
any other top engine with this strategy. Without it, I'm finding it

hard
to believe.


ok, so my rating is about 1600. Here are 3 interesting examples:
1) win against Shredder 8
2) a draw against Shredder 8 (I have many draws against it)
3) win against Hera (rating 2541 on FISC). Note, that I have beaten Hera
many times ...!!


Please Note, that both wins are wins by time (program lost on time).




  #26   Report Post  
Old April 8th 04, 08:09 AM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.


"Juha Kettunen" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"Ralph Jones" wrote in message
...
Please humor some of us and post a PGN of a game where you beat Shredder

or
any other top engine with this strategy. Without it, I'm finding it

hard
to believe.


ok, so my rating is about 1600. Here are 3 interesting examples:
1) win against Shredder 8


2) a draw against Shredder 8 (I have many draws against it)


Its funny, that in this game, after SHr. makes its 46 .. a4 move, it thinks
that it is still ahead -2.03 points, although it is a very clearly a draw
from this moment on! Human (even me) can see it, but program cannot!! If
black now sacrifices his pieces (he propably needs to acrifice 2 times,
which means 2 pawn sacrifices, to break the wall ...), white gets an
advantage, I am sure.



  #27   Report Post  
Old April 8th 04, 08:14 AM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.


"Juha Kettunen" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"Juha Kettunen" wrote in message
news:[email protected]

"Ralph Jones" wrote in message
...
Please humor some of us and post a PGN of a game where you beat

Shredder
or
any other top engine with this strategy. Without it, I'm finding it

hard
to believe.


ok, so my rating is about 1600. Here are 3 interesting examples:
1) win against Shredder 8


2) a draw against Shredder 8 (I have many draws against it)


Its funny, that in this game, after SHr. makes its 46 .. a4 move, it

thinks
that it is still ahead -2.03 points, although it is a very clearly a draw
from this moment on!


hmm... actually what happens , is, that Shredder actually sacrifices its
pawn on move 96, and it thinks that it then ahead "only" -0.36 points. So,
If SHredder saw ahead this 96-46=50 moves (which is of course impossible
even for the most powerfull computer in the world), it would have put its
score -0.36 instead of -2.03 when making its 46 th move.


  #28   Report Post  
Old April 8th 04, 04:54 PM
Guy Macon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.


Juha Kettunen says...

Please Note, that both wins are wins by time (program lost on time).


If a computer program loses on time, it isn't programmed correctly.

It should manage it's time so that it doesn't run out, and if it
makes a mistake in it's time management and comes close to running
out of time, it should play faster and faster, making moves in a
millisecond if that's what it takes to not run out of time.

Please don't assume that all chess computers aren't programmed
correctly. Some of them work as I describe above, and your
technique will fail against them.


--
Guy Macon, Electronics Engineer & Project Manager for hire.
Remember Doc Brown from the _Back to the Future_ movies? Do you
have an "impossible" engineering project that only someone like
Doc Brown can solve? My resume is at http://www.guymacon.com/

  #29   Report Post  
Old April 8th 04, 06:54 PM
Benjamin Jordan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.

A good description of this weakness is at:
http://www.x3dchess.com/news/analysisgame3.htm

In Kasparov's case, he was slowly moving in for the kill - not content to
win on time. I am sure the programmers are working to overcome this.


"Juha Kettunen" wrote in message
...

"Guy Macon" http://www.guymacon.com wrote in message
...

Juha Kettunen says...

Please Note, that both wins are wins by time (program lost on time).


If a computer program loses on time, it isn't programmed correctly.


Are you saying, that Shredder 8 is not programmed correctly?


It should manage it's time so that it doesn't run out, and if it
makes a mistake in it's time management and comes close to running
out of time, it should play faster and faster, making moves in a
millisecond if that's what it takes to not run out of time.


Thats what Shredder did, but it was too late (becouse it had only 10

seconds
time and I several minutes, and to make a move takes at least 0.05-0.1
seconds ...). I am able to move as fast as 0.1-0.2 seconds (for example

King
from g1 to h1 - g1,h1,g1,h1,g1,h1 ...). So what can computer do, is I

move
fast?

Please don't assume that all chess computers aren't programmed
correctly. Some of them work as I describe above, and your
technique will fail against them.


Hmm .. are you sure? I would like to test some programs which would work
like this. Let me try them (for example 10 minutes game). The point is,

that
I will anyway get at least a draw ...




  #30   Report Post  
Old April 8th 04, 06:59 PM
Mike Ogush
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.

On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 02:28:38 +0100, "Juha Kettunen"
wrote:

Hi

I saw somebody winning easily against computers using stonewall
(pawns a3,b2,c3,d4,e3,f4,g3,h2) , and he easily beat even strong computers
(2500, 2600 Shredder 8 and so on)! It was interesting, so I tried it myself,
and was basically able to do it as well! My rating is about 1600, so ...

For example I beat Shredder 8 (by time)(I own one) in 5-0 match, and many
other as well.

Are computers still that "simple" that they dont understand this "trick"
against humans? Is there a way to teach them to prevent this kind of play?
Definetely it is not easy task to program, becouse of the limit they see
ahead. It seems to me that most of the , even best, programs are not able to
do anything against it (so even I can beat them using this method, which is
kind of funny ...).



I agree that computers often play without an overall plan, especially
at blitz time controls. Looking over the games you posted elsewhere
in this thread it seems as if Black gets the advantage early in the
middle game, but does not "see" that he needs to break open the
position to turn the advantage into a win. Because the evaluation is
in Black's favor the computer avoids repeating the position and
allowing White (or Black to claim a draw)

There are two potential remedies for these planning problems without
changing the program:

1. Give the computer more time. Have you ried playing blitz chess
with longer time control, say Game in 10 minutes or Game in 30 minutes
to see if you can still win this way. When I did some superficial
analysis with Fritz 7, I found that the computer found better ways to
proceed with just a bit more time.

2. Modify the book that the computer uses. You did not say, but I
assume that you configured Shredder to play with its standard opening
book. It would be interesting to play a similar match with a
different opening book. I know that some computer chess programmers
have created special books in order to keep the position more open.

Mike Ogush
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