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Old April 7th 04, 02:28 AM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.

Hi

I saw somebody winning easily against computers using stonewall
(pawns a3,b2,c3,d4,e3,f4,g3,h2) , and he easily beat even strong computers
(2500, 2600 Shredder 8 and so on)! It was interesting, so I tried it myself,
and was basically able to do it as well! My rating is about 1600, so ...

For example I beat Shredder 8 (by time)(I own one) in 5-0 match, and many
other as well.

Are computers still that "simple" that they dont understand this "trick"
against humans? Is there a way to teach them to prevent this kind of play?
Definetely it is not easy task to program, becouse of the limit they see
ahead. It seems to me that most of the , even best, programs are not able to
do anything against it (so even I can beat them using this method, which is
kind of funny ...).


  #2   Report Post  
Old April 7th 04, 05:18 AM
none
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.

Juha Kettunen wrote:
Hi

I saw somebody winning easily against computers using stonewall
(pawns a3,b2,c3,d4,e3,f4,g3,h2) , and he easily beat even strong computers
(2500, 2600 Shredder 8 and so on)! It was interesting, so I tried it myself,
and was basically able to do it as well! My rating is about 1600, so ...

For example I beat Shredder 8 (by time)(I own one) in 5-0 match, and many
other as well.

Are computers still that "simple" that they dont understand this "trick"
against humans? Is there a way to teach them to prevent this kind of play?
Definetely it is not easy task to program, becouse of the limit they see
ahead. It seems to me that most of the , even best, programs are not able to
do anything against it (so even I can beat them using this method, which is
kind of funny ...).


a 1600 rated player would get his ass handed to him playing the moves
you outlined in a blitz game against shredder full strength.
  #3   Report Post  
Old April 7th 04, 07:49 AM
Mikko Nummelin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.

On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Juha Kettunen wrote:

"none" wrote in message
news


a 1600 rated player would get his ass handed to him playing the moves
you outlined in a blitz game against shredder full strength.


Note, that in that game, when I had time left 2:44, Shredder had only
13 seconds, so it was quite easy for me to beat it on time at that
moment ... but anyway, if you look the postion after 170 moves , you can
see, that it is definetely a draw, if I do not make simple mistakes
(actually I did one mistake, but SHr. had so little time, that it was
not able to beat me, but lost on time).


There must be something seriously wrong with your configuration.
Are you sure you don't have any handicap settings on? Many professional
engines allow their performance to be deliberately weakened if the user
wants to.

Please note that 13 seconds per move is _plenty of time_ for a good
computer chess program. I am not sure about Shredder, but from what I have
seen from Crafty, I assume that 13 seconds allows Shredder to search at
least six million (6,000,000) nodes in middlegame positions, perhaps even
more. That means 7 plies in full-width alpha-beta, but as good programs
use clever search extension, the PV depth could easily be even more than
10 plies in that time. And that's it without pondering. With pondering
(thinking on opponent's time) on, the program of course gets deeper and
plays even better.


Mikko Nummelin
  #4   Report Post  
Old April 7th 04, 08:02 AM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.


"none" wrote in message
news


a 1600 rated player would get his ass handed to him playing the moves
you outlined in a blitz game against shredder full strength.


I am serious ... I have Shredder 8 installed on my PC, and it was playing
full strength (I have 2.2 Ghz CPU and 256Meg hash table and fast hard drive
and memory)! I have couple of draws against it as well (using stonewall).
If needed, I can demontrate this again (I can beat Shredder again!) ... of
course I lost most of the game (many times becouse I am careless), but every
now and then it works!

If you dont believe, come to my house, and I will demonstrate it If I
play 10 games, I will get at least one draw for sure, or even win!!

Here is the pgn of that game I won (if you have Shredder, you can try it) -
it lost on time:

[Event "Blitz:5'"]
[Site "London, Walthamstow"]
[Date "2004.04.03"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Kettunen, Juha"]
[Black "Shredder 8"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D00"]
[Annotator "Kettunen,Juha"]
[PlyCount "502"]
[TimeControl "300"]

{256MB, Shredder8.ctg, JUHA} 1. d4 {[%emt 0:00:00]} d5 {[%emt 0:00:00]} 2.
e3 {
[%emt 0:00:01]} Bf5 {[%emt 0:00:00]} 3. f4 {[%emt 0:00:01]} e6 {
[%eval -40,14] [%emt 0:00:12]} 4. Nf3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Nf6 {[%emt 0:00:00]}
5.
c3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} a5 {[%eval -4,12] [%emt 0:00:13]} 6. Bd3 {[%emt
0:00:01]}
g6 {[%eval 26,11] [%emt 0:00:08]} 7. Qc2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bg7 {
[%eval -11,12] [%emt 0:00:08]} 8. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} c5 {
[%eval -1,12] [%emt 0:00:16]} 9. O-O {[%emt 0:00:02]} Nc6 {
[%eval 0,12] [%emt 0:00:07]} 10. g3 {[%emt 0:00:17]} h5 {
[%eval -44,10] [%emt 0:00:09]} 11. h4 {[%emt 0:00:10]} Bxd3 {
[%eval -120,10] [%emt 0:00:06]} 12. Qxd3 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qb6 {
[%eval -96,12] [%emt 0:00:10]} 13. Rf2 {[%emt 0:00:03]} Ne7 {
[%eval -165,12] [%emt 0:00:10]} 14. Rg2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ng4 {
[%eval -142,11] [%emt 0:00:05]} 15. Nbd2 {[%emt 0:00:06]} Nf5 {
[%eval -179,12] [%emt 0:00:05]} 16. Nf1 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Rg8 {
[%eval -156,11] [%emt 0:00:08]} 17. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:08]} Qc6 {
[%eval -148,11] [%emt 0:00:09]} 18. Qc2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} O-O-O {
[%eval -183,11] [%emt 0:00:05]} 19. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Kb8 {
[%eval -180,11] [%emt 0:00:06]} 20. Qc2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qa6 {
[%eval -204,10] [%emt 0:00:08]} 21. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Qb6 {
[%eval -176,12] [%emt 0:00:05]} 22. Qc2 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Qc7 {
[%eval -195,10] [%emt 0:00:05]} 23. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qc6 {
[%eval -172,10] [%emt 0:00:08]} 24. Qd2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rc8 {
[%eval -189,10] [%emt 0:00:09]} 25. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qb6 {
[%eval -204,10] [%emt 0:00:05]} 26. Qd2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Nf6 {
[%eval -206,10] [%emt 0:00:07]} 27. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qc7 {
[%eval -193,10] [%emt 0:00:05]} 28. Qd2 {[%emt 0:00:04]} c4 {
[%eval -208,11] [%emt 0:00:06]} 29. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} a4 {
[%eval -196,11] [%emt 0:00:03]} 30. a3 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Rcf8 {
[%eval -283,11] [%emt 0:00:03]} 31. Qd2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bh6 {
[%eval -294,13] [%emt 0:00:04]} 32. Qe2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qb6 {
[%eval -283,11] [%emt 0:00:03]} 33. Qc2 {[%emt 0:00:05]} Qb5 {
[%eval -287,13] [%emt 0:00:06]} 34. Bd2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Re8 {
[%eval -298,12] [%emt 0:00:05]} 35. Be1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bg7 {
[%eval -255,11] [%emt 0:00:05]} 36. Rd1 {[%emt 0:00:06]} Rgf8 {
[%eval -256,10] [%emt 0:00:03]} 37. Rdd2 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Ka8 {
[%eval -261,11] [%emt 0:00:04]} 38. Rde2 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bh6 {
[%eval -234,11] [%emt 0:00:03]} 39. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Nd6 {
[%eval -242,10] [%emt 0:00:03]} 40. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Rd8 {
[%eval -230,12] [%emt 0:00:02]} 41. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {
[%eval -232,11] [%emt 0:00:03]} 42. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ng4 {
[%eval -233,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 43. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:06]} Qa5 {
[%eval -244,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 44. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb8 {
[%eval -240,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 45. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kc8 {
[%eval -244,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 46. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qa7 {
[%eval -247,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 47. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bh6 {
[%eval -242,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 48. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb8 {
[%eval -243,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 49. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qa6 {
[%eval -244,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 50. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qa7 {
[%eval -243,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 51. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -240,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 52. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {
[%eval -247,10] [%emt 0:00:00]} 53. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rde8 {
[%eval -245,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 54. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd8 {
[%eval -247,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 55. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -243,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 56. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rgf8 {
[%eval -245,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 57. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qa6 {
[%eval -243,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 58. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Qb5 {
[%eval -258,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 59. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rce8 {
[%eval -248,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 60. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -265,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 61. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ne4 {
[%eval -253,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 62. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kc8 {
[%eval -253,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 63. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Kb8 {
[%eval -245,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 64. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kc8 {
[%eval -252,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 65. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Nd6 {
[%eval -241,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 66. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rgf8 {
[%eval -252,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 67. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rd8 {
[%eval -249,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 68. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rde8 {
[%eval -252,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 69. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bh6 {
[%eval -247,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 70. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb8 {
[%eval -245,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 71. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -249,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 72. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {
[%eval -251,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 73. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf8 {
[%eval -251,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 74. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} f5 {
[%eval -251,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 75. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ne4 {
[%eval -236,10] [%emt 0:00:01]} 76. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Be7 {
[%eval -253,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 77. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rgf8 {
[%eval -247,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 78. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf6 {
[%eval -254,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 79. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Be7 {
[%eval -254,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 80. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -254,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 81. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bd8 {
[%eval -248,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 82. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ba5 {
[%eval -256,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 83. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Kc8 {
[%eval -249,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 84. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bb6 {
[%eval -253,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 85. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb8 {
[%eval -248,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 86. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd8 {
[%eval -250,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 87. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rh8 {
[%eval -245,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 88. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rhg8 {
[%eval -248,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 89. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bc7 {
[%eval -240,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 90. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -254,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 91. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bd6 {
[%eval -245,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 92. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Be7 {
[%eval -248,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 93. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rge8 {
[%eval -252,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 94. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf6 {
[%eval -255,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 95. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {
[%eval -254,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 96. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -251,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 97. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rcd8 {
[%eval -250,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 98. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ka8 {
[%eval -249,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 99. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -250,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 100. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rce8 {
[%eval -253,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 101. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb8 {
[%eval -254,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 102. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -249,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 103. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rh8 {
[%eval -247,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 104. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rhe8 {
[%eval -248,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 105. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rcd8 {
[%eval -244,8] [%emt 0:00:01]} 106. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -253,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 107. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kc8 {
[%eval -248,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 108. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rdf8 {
[%eval -247,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 109. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd8 {
[%eval -244,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 110. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rdf8 {
[%eval -245,9] [%emt 0:00:01]} 111. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Re8 {
[%eval -241,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 112. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb8 {
[%eval -250,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 113. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd8 {
[%eval -246,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 114. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rh8 {
[%eval -248,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 115. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ka8 {
[%eval -252,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 116. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -247,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 117. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rb8 {
[%eval -250,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 118. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rhe8 {
[%eval -247,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 119. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rf8 {
[%eval -242,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 120. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rfe8 {
[%eval -245,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 121. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ka7 {
[%eval -224,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 122. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ra8 {
[%eval -219,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 123. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rad8 {
[%eval -217,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 124. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} b6 {
[%eval -180,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 125. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -222,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 126. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb7 {
[%eval -226,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 127. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qc6 {
[%eval -221,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 128. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qb5 {
[%eval -217,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 129. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rcd8 {
[%eval -218,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 130. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rb8 {
[%eval -214,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 131. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rbc8 {
[%eval -215,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 132. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ka7 {
[%eval -213,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 133. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qc6 {
[%eval -212,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 134. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Red8 {
[%eval -213,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 135. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qb5 {
[%eval -219,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 136. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qa5 {
[%eval -219,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 137. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rh8 {
[%eval -224,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 138. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb7 {
[%eval -222,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 139. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rhd8 {
[%eval -223,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 140. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rb8 {
[%eval -224,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 141. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -218,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 142. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rbc8 {
[%eval -209,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 143. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ka7 {
[%eval -214,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 144. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kb7 {
[%eval -211,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 145. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rb8 {
[%eval -213,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 146. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ka7 {
[%eval -217,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 147. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qb5 {
[%eval -218,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 148. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rbe8 {
[%eval -214,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 149. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qc6 {
[%eval -223,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 150. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rgf8 {
[%eval -212,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 151. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qb5 {
[%eval -218,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 152. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Rh8 {
[%eval -211,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 153. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ref8 {
[%eval -212,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 154. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rhg8 {
[%eval -214,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 155. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Re8 {
[%eval -212,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 156. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qc6 {
[%eval -215,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 157. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qd7 {
[%eval -215,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 158. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Nd6 {
[%eval -223,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 159. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ne4 {
[%eval -208,11] [%emt 0:00:00]} 160. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rh8 {
[%eval -218,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 161. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Kb7 {
[%eval -217,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 162. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rhf8 {
[%eval -224,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 163. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qb5 {
[%eval -269,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 164. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Qa5 {
[%eval -222,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 165. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qb5 {
[%eval -269,1] [%emt 0:00:00]} 166. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf6 {
[%eval -221,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 167. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -262,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 168. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kc7 {
[%eval -272,1] [%emt 0:00:00]} 169. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kc8 {
[%eval -247,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 170. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kd8 {
[%eval -216,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 171. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kc7 {
[%eval -220,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 172. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rgf8 {
[%eval -194,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 173. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Qb3 {
[%eval -195,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 174. Qxb3 {[%emt 0:00:04]} axb3 {
[%eval -165,15] [%emt 0:00:00]} 175. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Kd7 {
[%eval -188,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 176. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Be7 {
[%eval -194,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 177. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -200,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 178. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf8 {
[%eval -191,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 179. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Be7 {
[%eval -191,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 180. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bd6 {
[%eval -181,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 181. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rh8 {
[%eval -187,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 182. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rhf8 {
[%eval -212,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 183. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bc7 {
[%eval -190,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 184. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bd6 {
[%eval -191,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 185. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ke7 {
[%eval -187,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 186. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kf7 {
[%eval -205,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 187. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Be7 {
[%eval -204,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 188. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd8 {
[%eval -217,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 189. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -207,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 190. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rfe8 {
[%eval -215,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 191. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} b5 {
[%eval -210,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 192. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bd6 {
[%eval -196,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 193. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rcd8 {
[%eval -231,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 194. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rb8 {
[%eval -200,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 195. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Bf8 {
[%eval -202,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 196. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {
[%eval -203,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 197. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rbc8 {
[%eval -210,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 198. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Red8 {
[%eval -196,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 199. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rf8 {
[%eval -190,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 200. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rfe8 {
[%eval -214,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 201. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rb8 {
[%eval -215,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 202. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rbd8 {
[%eval -211,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 203. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ke7 {
[%eval -195,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 204. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kd7 {
[%eval -199,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 205. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rg8 {
[%eval -187,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 206. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rde8 {
[%eval -187,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 207. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rd8 {
[%eval -188,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 208. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ra8 {
[%eval -183,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 209. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rgf8 {
[%eval -186,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 210. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rae8 {
[%eval -185,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 211. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -182,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 212. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rfe8 {
[%eval -189,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 213. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rcd8 {
[%eval -201,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 214. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Re7 {
[%eval -184,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 215. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rc8 {
[%eval -182,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 216. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ree8 {
[%eval -187,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 217. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ke7 {
[%eval -192,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 218. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Red8 {
[%eval -224,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 219. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ra8 {
[%eval -195,5] [%emt 0:00:00]} 220. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kf7 {
[%eval -204,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 221. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf8 {
[%eval -207,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 222. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bd6 {
[%eval -222,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 223. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Re8 {
[%eval -230,1] [%emt 0:00:00]} 224. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bc7 {
[%eval -229,1] [%emt 0:00:00]} 225. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rad8 {
[%eval -209,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 226. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ra8 {
[%eval -229,1] [%emt 0:00:00]} 227. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kg7 {
[%eval -197,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 228. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bd6 {
[%eval -198,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 229. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Rac8 {
[%eval -225,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 230. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Ra8 {
[%eval -184,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 231. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rac8 {
[%eval -225,1] [%emt 0:00:00]} 232. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Red8 {
[%eval -183,9] [%emt 0:00:00]} 233. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Kf7 {
[%eval -199,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 234. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf8 {
[%eval -209,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 235. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Rb8 {
[%eval -155,6] [%emt 0:00:00]} 236. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bg7 {
[%eval -205,3] [%emt 0:00:00]} 237. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Re8 {
[%eval -188,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 238. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Bf6 {
[%eval -190,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 239. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ra8 {
[%eval -232,2] [%emt 0:00:00]} 240. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:00]} Ra6 {
[%eval -187,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 241. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} b4 {
[%eval -90,7] [%emt 0:00:00]} 242. cxb4 {[%emt 0:00:03]} c3 {
[%eval -90,12] [%emt 0:00:00]} 243. Bxc3 {[%emt 0:00:11]} Nxc3 {
[%eval -72,15] [%emt 0:00:00]} 244. bxc3 {[%emt 0:00:04]} Rc8 {
[%eval -57,15] [%emt 0:00:00]} 245. Rb2 {[%emt 0:00:17]} Rxc3 {
[%eval -149,8] [%emt 0:00:00]} 246. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:14]} Rxa3 {
[%eval -223,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 247. Kg1 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Ra4 {
[%eval -345,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 248. Kh1 {[%emt 0:00:01]} Nxe3 {
[%eval -445,4] [%emt 0:00:00]} 249. Nxe3 {[%emt 0:00:02]} Rxe3 {
[%eval -462,13] [%emt 0:00:00]} 250. Ne5+ {[%emt 0:00:10]} Bxe5 {
[%eval -475,18] [%emt 0:00:00]} 251. dxe5 {[%emt 0:00:09]} Rxb4 {
[%eval -485,19] [%emt 0:00:00]} 1-0



  #5   Report Post  
Old April 7th 04, 08:11 AM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.


"none" wrote in message
news

a 1600 rated player would get his ass handed to him playing the moves
you outlined in a blitz game against shredder full strength.


Note, that in that game, when I had time left 2:44, Shredder had only 13
seconds, so it was quite easy for me to beat it on time at that moment ...
but anyway, if you look the postion after 170 moves , you can see, that it
is definetely a draw, if I do not make simple mistakes (actually I did one
mistake, but SHr. had so little time, that it was not able to beat me, but
lost on time).




  #6   Report Post  
Old April 7th 04, 09:31 AM
David Richerby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.

Mikko Nummelin wrote:
Juha Kettunen wrote:
Note, that in that game, when I had time left 2:44, Shredder had only
13 seconds, so it was quite easy for me to beat it on time at that
moment


Please note that 13 seconds per move is _plenty of time_ for a good
computer chess program.


Not thirteen seconds per move: thirteen seconds for the rest of the
game. This is a five-minute blitz game. The winning strategy is to get
into a solid, closed, drawn position with all the pawns on the board
and then move one's king from side to side for 200 moves until the
computer loses on time. Because Juha's moves in that period took no
thought, pondering wasn't really an issue.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Erotic Crystal Whisky (TM): it's
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ like a single-malt whisky but it's
completely transparent and genuinely
erotic!
  #7   Report Post  
Old April 7th 04, 10:57 AM
Mikko Nummelin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.

On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, David Richerby wrote:

Not thirteen seconds per move: thirteen seconds for the rest of the
game. This is a five-minute blitz game. The winning strategy is to get
into a solid, closed, drawn position with all the pawns on the board
and then move one's king from side to side for 200 moves until the
computer loses on time. Because Juha's moves in that period took no
thought, pondering wasn't really an issue.


I must still say that if beating Shredder 8 is that easy, the engine
cannot be considered as top-level. One important aspect of a good chess
engine is that it can handle time-controls appropriately. Losing on time
to humans is not good performance from a good chess engine.

If a computer program manages to do 500knps and does good job on move
ordering, it should achieve at least _full width_ ply levels following
this table:

1 ply in 70 microseconds
2 plies in 490 microseconds
3 plies in 3.4 milliseconds
4 plies in 24 milliseconds
5 plies in 170 milliseconds
6 plies in 1.2 seconds
7 plies in 8.2 seconds
8 plies in 57 seconds or say, 1 minute

In this table there are _no search extensions_ nor _null move pruning_
assumed! Those lead sometimes 3-5 plies deeper in principal variation.
This certainly means that top-level chess engines can both play good chess
and avoid time trouble in blitz when using their strongest settings.

Conclusion: Juha's Shredder 8 must be badly configured, corrupt or some
other heavy processes interfere too much with it causing failures in
respecting time controls.


Mikko Nummelin
  #8   Report Post  
Old April 7th 04, 02:01 PM
Michael Wäsch
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.


"Mikko Nummelin" schrieb im Newsbeitrag
i...
Hi,

Conclusion: Juha's Shredder 8 must be badly configured, corrupt or some
other heavy processes interfere too much with it causing failures in
respecting time controls.


I don´t think so. I have seen a lot of games, just like that on chessbase
server, where humans easily beat Shredder, Fritz, Hiarcs with that method.
Have these engines all been misconfigured?

As I said, I was kiebitzing a lot of these games and the strategy of the
human player always was to get into a solid blocked position. This is not
always successful, since the computer will crush you if you make a mistake
on your way there, but if you are successful in reaching such a position,
the computer is totally confused and helpless. The human player will move
his king or rooks with no effort in time, while the computer looses more and
more time until it looses on time. I also couldn´t belive that, but it is
true and I have seen it many times. Weaker players would go for that win on
time or draw by repeated position. Stronger player would wait, until the
computer has very little time, then opening up some lines and clobber the
computer.

There is simply no machine that I haven´t seen getting crushed, really wiped
from the board with this method.

Mike


  #9   Report Post  
Old April 7th 04, 06:42 PM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.


"Mikko Nummelin" wrote in message
i...
On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, David Richerby wrote:


Conclusion: Juha's Shredder 8 must be badly configured, corrupt or some
other heavy processes interfere too much with it causing failures in
respecting time controls.


The settings are default settings -the ones which are initially on if you
install Shredder 8 first time from the CD-, and it was really playing with
full strength (about 500kN/s).

Just for fun, and to demonstrate this issue, I just quickly (couple of
minutes ago) tried one game against your engine, Needle 0.53.1. It plays
rather well ... but, I was able very easily to get a draw in 66 moves, no
problems at all! How can I say "very easily" ... becouse I used time only 42
seconds for the whole game, and remember that my rating is only about 1600!
On the other hand, Needle used 4 min 26 seconds. This game was a blitz game
= 5 min (5/0). So needle had only 34 secs left time and game was a draw
becouse of 50 moves rule. I didnt even try to beat it (which I propably
could have done becouse of the time advantage), I was just trying to get a
draw.

Here is the pgn of that game:

[Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "JUHA"]
[Date "2004.04.07"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Juha Kettunen"]
[Black "Needle 0.53.1"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "300"]

1. d4 d5 2. f4 e6 3. e3 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Nf6 6. g3 Bd6 7. Bd3 c4 8. Bc2
O-O 9. O-O Bd7 10. Rf2 Ng4 11. Rg2 h6 12. Ba4 a6 13. Bc2 Rc8 14. Ne1 Nf6
15. Nf3 b5 16. a3 Ng4 17. Qe2 Nf6 18. Nbd2 Qa5 19. Nf1 Qc7 20. Kh1 Qd8 21.
Kg1 Re8 22. Bd2 Ne4 23. Be1 Nf6 24. Kh1 Rc7 25. Kg1 Be7 26. Kh1 Bd6 27. Kg1
Ra7 28. Kh1 Rb7 29. Kg1 Rc7 30. Kh1 Rf8 31. Kg1 Ne7 32. Kh1 Bc6 33. Kg1 Be8
34. Kh1 Nc6 35. Kg1 Re7 36. Kh1 Bd7 37. Kg1 Qb6 38. Qd1 Qd8 39. Kh1 Ree8
40. Kg1 Re7 41. Kh1 Ree8 42. Kg1 Qb6 43. Kh1 Qc7 44. Kg1 Qd8 45. Kh1 Re7
46. Kg1 Ree8 47. Kh1 Qc7 48. Kg1 Rc8 49. Kh1 Qd8 50. Kg1 Ne7 51. Kh1 Nc6
52. Kg1 Rc7 53. Kh1 Re8 54. Kg1 Ne7 55. Kh1 Bc6 56. Kg1 Nf5 57. Kh1 Ne7 58.
Kg1 Nf5 59. Kh1 Rd7 60. Kg1 Rb7 61. Kh1 Ne4 62. Kg1 Rc7 63. Kh1 Be7 64. Kg1
Bd6 65. Kh1 Be7 66. Kg1
{50 moves without progress} 1/2-1/2


  #10   Report Post  
Old April 7th 04, 06:42 PM
Mikko Nummelin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Using stonewall against computers.

On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Juha Kettunen wrote:

Just for fun, and to demonstrate this issue, I just quickly (couple of
minutes ago) tried one game against your engine, Needle 0.53.1. It plays
rather well ... but, I was able very easily to get a draw in 66 moves, no
problems at all! How can I say "very easily" ... becouse I used time only 42


Needle is certainly not in par with Shredder, the former plays in low
or intermediate club-player level. It is not difficult to draw against
it, in fact I have seen many examples of it making stupid blunders and
losing the game.


Mikko Nummelin
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