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Old April 7th 04, 03:39 AM
Juha Kettunen
 
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Default Base for a chess program code (crafty?).

I would like to start to program a chess engine, but I would more like to
concentrate on other things than programming the basic thing (board
presentation, bitboard system and so on). I would like to do searching
algoritms myself and evaluation functions and so on, so all the things
linked with the artificial intelligence. Would it be possible, and a good
idea, for example ask Crafty code to be the base of the chess programs for
this : somebody would prune away all the code which are not related to base.
I think it is quite powerfull and has a fast move generator, so would be
good. But it is quite difficult for me to take only those parts of the code
that only belongs to board representation, and does Hyatt give me permit to
do it . Has somebody allready done this kind of base? I would definetely
be interested in it.

Question: So many people program chess engines, so why everyone must start
from the scratch? Isn't my idea good, that there would be a general base
(good quality) for progs, so that all can use it as a base for their engine?
Why "invent the wheel again" ...

And I would gladly pay something if I got this kind of base (including good
comments on the code)!


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Old April 7th 04, 10:46 AM
Jonathan Beckett
 
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Default Base for a chess program code (crafty?).

On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 03:39:17 +0100, "Juha Kettunen"
wrote:

Question: So many people program chess engines, so why everyone must start
from the scratch? Isn't my idea good, that there would be a general base
(good quality) for progs, so that all can use it as a base for their engine?
Why "invent the wheel again" ...


I guess the fun is in the figuring out "how".

I have a half written chess engine at home that I started on a long
time ago and keep picking at, but it doesn't work anything like the
high performance engines (which all use binary trickery in order to
optimise performance).

The fun for me has been in solving each of the smaller problems.

Regards

Jonathan Beckett

http://www.madaboutchess.com
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Old April 7th 04, 06:02 PM
Benjamin Jordan
 
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Default Base for a chess program code (crafty?).

Crafty is available in source form - you don't need to ask. From the Crafty
documentation:

My purpose for doing this is an exercise in computer chess
efficiency. I can't begin to count the number of people I
know that started from scratch to write a chess program.

Even larger is the group that started from scratch, and gave
up before finishing, because of the basic size of the pro-
ject.

Crafty offers everyone a very clean starting point, if you
are fascinated by the bitmap chess board implementation (as
I am). The search and quiescence code is reasonably
straightforward, as is the evaluation,

It offers a great starting point, so that if you are inter-
ested in trying a new search extension, you can be testing
tomorrow, rather than next year, because you start with a
fully functional chess engine that is not a "toy" applica-
tion, but is a functional and "dangerous" chess player. It
offers a rapid start, although you can certainly replace it
piece by piece until it is "yours" if you want. It also
offers a fairly complete set of commands and an interface
for a GUI as well as support for chess server play, so that
testing and debugging your new ideas is greatly simplified."


"Juha Kettunen" wrote in message
...
I would like to start to program a chess engine, but I would more like to
concentrate on other things than programming the basic thing (board
presentation, bitboard system and so on). I would like to do searching
algoritms myself and evaluation functions and so on, so all the things
linked with the artificial intelligence. Would it be possible, and a good
idea, for example ask Crafty code to be the base of the chess programs for
this : somebody would prune away all the code which are not related to

base.
I think it is quite powerfull and has a fast move generator, so would be
good. But it is quite difficult for me to take only those parts of the

code
that only belongs to board representation, and does Hyatt give me permit

to
do it . Has somebody allready done this kind of base? I would definetely
be interested in it.

Question: So many people program chess engines, so why everyone must start
from the scratch? Isn't my idea good, that there would be a general base
(good quality) for progs, so that all can use it as a base for their

engine?
Why "invent the wheel again" ...

And I would gladly pay something if I got this kind of base (including

good
comments on the code)!




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Old April 7th 04, 07:32 PM
Tord Kallqvist Romstad
 
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Default Base for a chess program code (crafty?).

"Juha Kettunen" writes:

"Benjamin Jordan" wrote in message
...
Crafty is available in source form - you don't need to ask. From the

Crafty
documentation:


Oh, thanks very mutch,,, so I can use his code as a base for my prog. - very
nice ,,, i didnt know that. How about, if I start to sell my program, can I
still use (some of) his code for free? This is an important issue.
Definetely I cannot take the whole code and sell it, but how about if I take
some parts of it? Is there any copyrights involved? ok, Maybe I just need to
read his copyright document carefully ...

Only one thing , could somebody prune away the unwanted code (that was
actually what I wanted)... Ok, I can do it, but the code is not very easy ,
at least for me. It takes time to understand it.


If that is what you want, Crafty is not the right base to choose. I'd
recommend you to have a look at OliThink. Like Crafty, it is based on
rotated bitboards, but the code is small, compact, and relatively easy
to read. The whole source code is less than 2000 lines of C, if I
recall correctly.

--
Tord Romstad
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Old April 7th 04, 08:20 PM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Base for a chess program code (crafty?).


"Benjamin Jordan" wrote in message
...
Crafty is available in source form - you don't need to ask. From the

Crafty
documentation:


Oh, thanks very mutch,,, so I can use his code as a base for my prog. - very
nice ,,, i didnt know that. How about, if I start to sell my program, can I
still use (some of) his code for free? This is an important issue.
Definetely I cannot take the whole code and sell it, but how about if I take
some parts of it? Is there any copyrights involved? ok, Maybe I just need to
read his copyright document carefully ...

Only one thing , could somebody prune away the unwanted code (that was
actually what I wanted)... Ok, I can do it, but the code is not very easy ,
at least for me. It takes time to understand it.




  #6   Report Post  
Old April 7th 04, 08:21 PM
Simon Waters
 
Posts: n/a
Default Base for a chess program code (crafty?).

Juha Kettunen wrote:

Oh, thanks very mutch,,, so I can use his code as a base for my prog. - very
nice ,,, i didnt know that. How about, if I start to sell my program, can I
still use (some of) his code for free? This is an important issue.


Ask the copyright holder - he isn't exactly hard to find - unlike some
software authors.

Maybe I just need to
read his copyright document carefully ...


Last time I looked these were in short supply.

Some websites claim Craft is distributed under the GPL - as far as I
know they are wrong.

Only one thing , could somebody prune away the unwanted code (that was
actually what I wanted)... Ok, I can do it, but the code is not very easy ,
at least for me. It takes time to understand it.


There are GPL'ed chess engines (GNU Chess and Sjeng Free and many others
- Sjeng Free has very tidy source code - probably the product of more
ordered minds).

These you can definitely use and sell, subject to making source code
modifications available, whilst this might limit the price you can
charge I doubt anyone will pay more than a few dollars for an engine
unless it is radically better than exising free engines anyway.

If you make that killer innovation you could no doubt use the idea
elsewhere if you really have to make money living of your old ideas
instead of your new ones.

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Old April 7th 04, 08:58 PM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Base for a chess program code (crafty?).


"Benjamin Jordan" wrote in message
...
Crafty is available in source form - you don't need to ask. From the

Crafty
documentation:


The only problem is, that its too difficult for me to understand it. It need
to be very well commented and simplified so that I could understand it.


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