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Old April 8th 04, 07:37 AM
Chuck
 
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Default What will happen when humans lose....

As I have predicted, feel that in about 2 years Kaspy and others will no
longer be able to hold their own against computers. My questions is what
will happen then?? Will it cause 2 seperate federations to form, A digital
chess league where programs play other programs and systems for titles and
championships and humans go back to playing other humans?

Its going to happen, and its just a matter of time and its something we all
need to think about.


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Old April 8th 04, 08:29 AM
Mikko Nummelin
 
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Default What will happen when humans lose....

On Thu, 8 Apr 2004, Chuck wrote:

As I have predicted, feel that in about 2 years Kaspy and others will
no longer be able to hold their own against computers. My questions is
what will happen then?? Will it cause 2 seperate federations to form, A
digital chess league where programs play other programs and systems for
titles and championships and humans go back to playing other humans?


Its going to happen, and its just a matter of time and its something we
all need to think about.


It is even now so, that only a few events are for both humans and
computers, (usually) computers are not allowed into major tournaments like
national championships and FIDE Candidate's matches. I don't see how this
would change regardless of actual strength of those computer programs.
Good chess programs are both technical curiosities plus great tools in
analyzing top-level games.


Mikko Nummelin
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Old April 8th 04, 09:22 AM
Jonathan Beckett
 
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Default What will happen when humans lose....

On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:37:59 -0500, "Chuck" wrote:

As I have predicted, feel that in about 2 years Kaspy and others will no
longer be able to hold their own against computers. My questions is what
will happen then?? Will it cause 2 seperate federations to form, A digital
chess league where programs play other programs and systems for titles and
championships and humans go back to playing other humans?



I really don't understand why people worry about this - the real issue
is why on earth computers are allowed to be entered into competition
against humans.

What would happen if Honda build a robot and enter it in the olympic
weightlifting? ("and we have a new olympic weightlifting champion -
Honda WL29847 with a final lift of 258,000 Kg")

The real point behind computer chess is "man as an artist" verses "man
as a toolmaker" - and given sufficient time and resources, the
toolmaker will win in certain competitions - chess being one of them.



Regards,

Jonathan Beckett
http://www.madaboutchess.com
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Old April 8th 04, 12:50 PM
Amos Soma
 
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Default What will happen when humans lose....

Chuck,

Why do we need to think about it? Fritz 8 can already beat all but perhaps
5 players in the world on a regular basis. What possible difference could
that make to you and I? Professional chess is already in a huge mess and it
has has absolutely nothing to do with computers.

"Chuck" wrote in message
...
As I have predicted, feel that in about 2 years Kaspy and others will no
longer be able to hold their own against computers. My questions is what
will happen then?? Will it cause 2 seperate federations to form, A

digital
chess league where programs play other programs and systems for titles and
championships and humans go back to playing other humans?

Its going to happen, and its just a matter of time and its something we

all
need to think about.




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Old April 8th 04, 02:43 PM
Chuck
 
Posts: n/a
Default What will happen when humans lose....

I agree with things being in a mess, it really has gotten out of hand.


"Amos Soma" wrote in message
...
Chuck,

Why do we need to think about it? Fritz 8 can already beat all but perhaps
5 players in the world on a regular basis. What possible difference could
that make to you and I? Professional chess is already in a huge mess and it
has has absolutely nothing to do with computers.

"Chuck" wrote in message
...
As I have predicted, feel that in about 2 years Kaspy and others will no
longer be able to hold their own against computers. My questions is what
will happen then?? Will it cause 2 seperate federations to form, A

digital
chess league where programs play other programs and systems for titles and
championships and humans go back to playing other humans?

Its going to happen, and its just a matter of time and its something we

all
need to think about.







  #6   Report Post  
Old April 8th 04, 06:43 PM
Benjamin Jordan
 
Posts: n/a
Default What will happen when humans lose....

What will happen when humans lose?? We will congratulate ourselves for
building the machine that did it. As for tournaments, Jonathan is exactly
right.


"Jonathan Beckett" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:37:59 -0500, "Chuck" wrote:

As I have predicted, feel that in about 2 years Kaspy and others will no
longer be able to hold their own against computers. My questions is what
will happen then?? Will it cause 2 seperate federations to form, A

digital
chess league where programs play other programs and systems for titles

and
championships and humans go back to playing other humans?



I really don't understand why people worry about this - the real issue
is why on earth computers are allowed to be entered into competition
against humans.

What would happen if Honda build a robot and enter it in the olympic
weightlifting? ("and we have a new olympic weightlifting champion -
Honda WL29847 with a final lift of 258,000 Kg")

The real point behind computer chess is "man as an artist" verses "man
as a toolmaker" - and given sufficient time and resources, the
toolmaker will win in certain competitions - chess being one of them.



Regards,

Jonathan Beckett
http://www.madaboutchess.com



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Old April 8th 04, 08:00 PM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default What will happen when humans lose....


"Chuck" wrote in message
...
I agree with things being in a mess, it really has gotten out of hand.


"Amos Soma" wrote in message
...
Chuck,

Why do we need to think about it? Fritz 8 can already beat all but

perhaps
5 players in the world on a regular basis.


Hmm. ... it cannot even beat me (1600) see my games against Shreedder 8
below (thread: Juha Kettunen),,, I beat it. I just yesterday played a 20/0
game against Fritz 6 on my computer, and it was a draw!

Who knows, if I practiced a litttle bit more, and face the Fritz 8 with
powerful computer, maybe I would even be able to achieve a draw against it
in 5 game match! I just need a little bit more practice to get those right
moves all the time (now I dont draw of win all the time, becouse I do simple
mistakes (which should be quite easy to avoid even for me) many time - note
my rating is 1600).

No, I am not among the top 5 players in the world ...


  #8   Report Post  
Old April 10th 04, 08:00 AM
Petri
 
Posts: n/a
Default What will happen when humans lose....

This is true, I can also beat & draw Fritz 8 occasionally
and my rating is barely in the class of 1800-1900. My favorite
approach to is to build center blockade (some sort of a stonewall position)
and prepearing attack to the side Fritz castles into. Results are
best in rapid time control; blitz and long games are also possible,
but lightning is kinda hopeless.

t. Petri

Hmm. ... it cannot even beat me (1600) see my games against Shreedder 8
below (thread: Juha Kettunen),,, I beat it. I just yesterday played a 20/0
game against Fritz 6 on my computer, and it was a draw!

Who knows, if I practiced a litttle bit more, and face the Fritz 8 with
powerful computer, maybe I would even be able to achieve a draw against it
in 5 game match! I just need a little bit more practice to get those right
moves all the time (now I dont draw of win all the time, becouse I do simple
mistakes (which should be quite easy to avoid even for me) many time - note
my rating is 1600).

No, I am not among the top 5 players in the world ...

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Old April 10th 04, 12:11 PM
George
 
Posts: n/a
Default What will happen when humans lose....

Jonathan Beckett wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:37:59 -0500, "Chuck" wrote:

As I have predicted, feel that in about 2 years Kaspy and others will no
longer be able to hold their own against computers. My questions is what
will happen then?? Will it cause 2 seperate federations to form, A digital
chess league where programs play other programs and systems for titles and
championships and humans go back to playing other humans?



I really don't understand why people worry about this - the real issue
is why on earth computers are allowed to be entered into competition
against humans.

What would happen if Honda build a robot and enter it in the olympic
weightlifting? ("and we have a new olympic weightlifting champion -
Honda WL29847 with a final lift of 258,000 Kg")


That's not the same and actually is VERY different. Humans are not
being proud of their other skills like speed, muscle power, swimming
ability etc, BUT we are proud for our intelligence, for our brain
abilities. And if something, even if it has been constructed by us,
manages to surpass that ability then we start worrying about it.
If something lifts 200.000 kg then we don't care at all. We are not
champions at those areas, most animals are better at those areas from
us, we only care about who is the smartest.


The real point behind computer chess is "man as an artist" verses "man
as a toolmaker" - and given sufficient time and resources, the
toolmaker will win in certain competitions - chess being one of them.


As the artist is something not well defined i will say that the
contest is between "man as a calculator/having good instinct/being
creative" versus "man as an intelligent creature".
You said toolmaker. I can't understand what do you mean exactly. You
have to mean a clever person who has all the tools and time to make
something.

The intelligent creature=toolmaker=chess programmer can create
something which is million years behind at creativity in comparison
with the chess playing man, but he is million years ahead at
calculation ability. Also his creation has not any instinct at all.
Before some years this calculation ability was not enough to cover the
lack of creativity. Now the improvements on hardware and the
improvement in programming techniques have almost covered the lack of
the creativity. Computers can't plan with the human definition, but
their game seems to have a plan due to the amazing depths they reach.
And what about the lack of instinct. What i mean instinct in chess? I
mean the ability that chess players have to disregard some moves,
because they "feel" they are not good. How they do that. They are
based on their instinct which is based on their ability of remembering
patterns in the chessboard. Computers can't do that (yet?). But as it
seems calculation is enough for computers to be at the top level in
chess.

Computer's strength will increase while humans ability to play chess
will stay almost the same. Humans would keep improving at playing
chess but not due to their better abilities from one generation to
another, but because of their study of the game. They will learn from
the mistakes chess players made in the past. But that's not enough.
Computers will be unbeatable by humans one day. But that's not
something we have to worry. Why should be?


Regards,

Jonathan Beckett
http://www.madaboutchess.com

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Old April 10th 04, 05:37 PM
Mark VandeWettering
 
Posts: n/a
Default What will happen when humans lose....

In article , George wrote:
Jonathan Beckett wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 01:37:59 -0500, "Chuck" wrote:

As I have predicted, feel that in about 2 years Kaspy and others will no
longer be able to hold their own against computers. My questions is what
will happen then?? Will it cause 2 seperate federations to form, A digital
chess league where programs play other programs and systems for titles and
championships and humans go back to playing other humans?



I really don't understand why people worry about this - the real issue
is why on earth computers are allowed to be entered into competition
against humans.

What would happen if Honda build a robot and enter it in the olympic
weightlifting? ("and we have a new olympic weightlifting champion -
Honda WL29847 with a final lift of 258,000 Kg")


That's not the same and actually is VERY different. Humans are not
being proud of their other skills like speed, muscle power, swimming
ability etc, BUT we are proud for our intelligence, for our brain
abilities.


Uh, there are a great many people in this world who are proud of their
physical skills and prowess. They even hold competitions for showcasing
their abilities, and I hear they are rather popular. Consult ESPN for
examples.

And if something, even if it has been constructed by us,
manages to surpass that ability then we start worrying about it.


I suspect this is only because we have a couple of centuries of perspective
on our loss. You might recall the tale of John Henry vs. the steam engine
for historical perspective.

If something lifts 200.000 kg then we don't care at all. We are not
champions at those areas, most animals are better at those areas from
us, we only care about who is the smartest.


The real point behind computer chess is "man as an artist" verses "man
as a toolmaker" - and given sufficient time and resources, the
toolmaker will win in certain competitions - chess being one of them.


As the artist is something not well defined i will say that the
contest is between "man as a calculator/having good instinct/being
creative" versus "man as an intelligent creature".
You said toolmaker. I can't understand what do you mean exactly. You
have to mean a clever person who has all the tools and time to make
something.

The intelligent creature=toolmaker=chess programmer can create
something which is million years behind at creativity in comparison
with the chess playing man, but he is million years ahead at
calculation ability. Also his creation has not any instinct at all.
Before some years this calculation ability was not enough to cover the
lack of creativity. Now the improvements on hardware and the
improvement in programming techniques have almost covered the lack of
the creativity. Computers can't plan with the human definition, but
their game seems to have a plan due to the amazing depths they reach.
And what about the lack of instinct. What i mean instinct in chess? I
mean the ability that chess players have to disregard some moves,
because they "feel" they are not good. How they do that.


In virtually all the cases, by making mistakes.

They are
based on their instinct which is based on their ability of remembering
patterns in the chessboard. Computers can't do that (yet?).


On the contrary, computers remember patterns very well.

But as it
seems calculation is enough for computers to be at the top level in
chess.

Computer's strength will increase while humans ability to play chess
will stay almost the same. Humans would keep improving at playing
chess but not due to their better abilities from one generation to
another, but because of their study of the game. They will learn from
the mistakes chess players made in the past. But that's not enough.
Computers will be unbeatable by humans one day. But that's not
something we have to worry. Why should be?


Mark



Regards,

Jonathan Beckett
http://www.madaboutchess.com

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