Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old November 7th 07, 09:27 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: May 2006
Posts: 9,302
Default GetClub vs. Jester games faked?

After weeks, probably months, of reading about how GetClub's
success against the Jester program, I finally went to the Web
site again (I did not like the graphic chess board before) and
played a couple of games.

This site (ludochess.com) claims that Jester is the world's
strongest Jave chess program, so it seems ludicrous that the
games Sanny has presented here are a fair representation of
its chess play. Sure enough, Jester not only moved very
quickly (unlike anything available at GetClub), but in the first
game it did not make even a single "questionable" move. In
fact, it was much like playing Fritz (which is not a Java applet).

I noticed that even when I set the program for a somewhat
slower pace, it still moved rapidly, and thus, so did I. Just
like five minute blitz chess, this program was determined not
to get into a bind on the clock -- come what may. I lost two
out of two, and I still don't know if it would have claimed a
win on time, had I played slower and exceeded my allotment.

IMO, the only way for a decent game to occur between the
Jester I played and GetClub, would be to set Jester to move
in one second, versus GetClub's Master or Advance level --
taking a half-hour or much more per move, on average. My
question to Sanny is this: why is it that his results show
Jester playing poorly, missing obvious tactics for example,
when every time I have tried it the program plays both
quickly and strongly?

My view is that this program is most likely not much worse
than commercial programs like Fritz or Crafty, in spite of the
Java platform. The games we have seen posted here by
Sanny make no sense, unless he has crippled the Jester
program severely. If so, please inform me how this can be
done, so I don't get clobbered by Jester ever again. :D


-- help bot

  #2   Report Post  
Old November 7th 07, 03:57 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
SBD SBD is offline
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,172
Default GetClub vs. Jester games faked?

It took you that long to figure out?


  #3   Report Post  
Old November 7th 07, 05:06 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: May 2006
Posts: 9,302
Default GetClub vs. Jester games faked?

On Nov 7, 10:57 am, SBD wrote:

It took you that long to figure out?


Well, if you check the archives, I made a post very similar
to that one /a long time ago/.


It is possible that Sanny is trying to run both Java applets
on a single computer, and somehow or other it has allocated
most of the resources to the GetClub program, or for whatever
reason it is not running normally on his end.

My experience has been that Jester runs quick and strong,
but that does not mean it works that way for everyone. For
instance, I seem to be the only one complaining about the
*frequent* disconnects at GetClub, despite numerous other
posters here who will complain about everything imaginable.

Obviously, if Sanny never responds to my questions then
people will assume the worst (like they haven't already!).
But this at least gives him another opportunity to address
the issue (or stop posting those "fake" games).

I have been having a bit more trouble lately with the Normal
level at GetClub, and I believe this is because it is playing
stronger than before. Against Beginner level however, I still
win quite easily. It might be interesting to compare the
actual results of Sanny's chess program to what naysayers
predicted a year or so ago; I believe the program has either
been switched for a /real/ chess program, or else it has
improved dramatically. (Yet if there had been a switch, how
do you explain my beating it on any level?)


-- help bot




  #4   Report Post  
Old November 7th 07, 05:17 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
SBD SBD is offline
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,172
Default GetClub vs. Jester games faked?

Well, incompetence on Sanny's end ( the allocation of resources) is
a very likely explanation, to be sure. Anyone who, for a year, works
on a chess program that can't play as well as one I programmed in the
1980s in BASIC is surely not too good at programming.

But the combination of incompetence + incompetent fakery seems just as
likely.

  #5   Report Post  
Old November 8th 07, 09:57 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: May 2006
Posts: 9,302
Default GetClub vs. Jester games faked?

On Nov 7, 12:17 pm, SBD wrote:

Well, incompetence on Sanny's end ( the allocation of resources) is
a very likely explanation, to be sure. Anyone who, for a year, works
on a chess program that can't play as well as one I programmed in the
1980s in BASIC is surely not too good at programming.

But the combination of incompetence + incompetent fakery seems just as
likely.


Surely you are not suggesting that your program, running
on a computer from the 1980s, would defeat Sanny's program,
running on a modern computer? This seems impossible,
even with the knowledge that his Java is oh-so-slow.

Maybe you want a fair match, where both programs run
on modern computers (GetClub's program would cause
older computers to explode in disgust!)? As I said, except
against Beginner level, the GetClub program has improved
considerably. Note well that former critics are no longer
testing their mettle, so what you have is a few recent
victories (or losses) which I believe represent the Beginner
level, which tries to move "quickly". The higher levels are
much tougher.

Let's have another go at guesstimating ratings:

Beginner: 1600

Easy: 1700

Normal: 1800

Master: 1900

Advance: 2000


Granted, these higher levels are dead slow, but I
doubt I have overestimated. Only at the very end,
when the horrific problem of King inactivity surfaces,
does the program's strength fall off a cliff. I'm pretty
good at surviving tactics, and getting to that point
so I can rack up yet another "easy" win, but many
players are not. :D


-- help bot







  #6   Report Post  
Old November 9th 07, 05:47 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: May 2006
Posts: 5,365
Default GetClub vs. Jester games faked?

I played the games between Jester & Easy Level. Play a few games with
Easy Level they will play as good as Jester. I played with default
settings in Jester Vs Easy Level.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

I am seeing that Zebediah yesterday played 2-3 games with Beginner
Level. He managed to beat Beginner level in just 13 moves. While
others take 50-60 Moves to beat the Beginner Level.

The reasion you loose with jester is that it has very small board to
analyze while GetClub Board is quite Big to analyze. Further GetClub
shows what move it is thinking So you get an idea what it is going to
play.

Thinking on Pawn, Thinking on Queen ... And you know what is going in
GetClub Mind. So you get more time to descide your move.

Now Easy Level at GetClub plays as good as Jester. And in 4 Matches I
feel It will give 2-2 Score.

My Computer is P-IV 2.5 Ghz 512 MB RAM. So it is Quite fast.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

  #7   Report Post  
Old November 9th 07, 05:49 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: May 2006
Posts: 5,365
Default GetClub vs. Jester games faked?

Let's have another go at guesstimating ratings:

Beginner: 1600

Easy: 1700

Normal: 1800

Master: 1900

Advance: 2000


Here is what I think.

Beginner: 1700
Easy: 1800
Normal: 1900
Master: 2000
Advance: 2100

Recently the game was improved now Higher Levels will play much
stronger Games.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


  #8   Report Post  
Old November 9th 07, 12:12 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Sep 2003
Posts: 268
Default GetClub vs. Jester games faked?

In rec.games.chess.computer Sanny wrote:
Here is what I think.

Beginner: 1700
Easy: 1800
Normal: 1900
Master: 2000
Advance: 2100

Recently the game was improved now Higher Levels will play much
stronger Games.


So Sanny ... you didn't address the subject of the thread. Did you fake the
match?

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

When the ax entered the forest, the trees said, "The handle is one of us!"
-- Turkish proverb
  #9   Report Post  
Old November 9th 07, 12:14 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Sep 2003
Posts: 268
Default GetClub vs. Jester games faked?

In rec.games.chess.computer Sanny wrote:

My Computer is P-IV 2.5 Ghz 512 MB RAM. So it is Quite fast.


2.4GHz ... and old ... you need more memory to be running Java chess :-)

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

When the ax entered the forest, the trees said, "The handle is one of us!"
-- Turkish proverb
  #10   Report Post  
Old November 9th 07, 12:18 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by ChessBanter: May 2006
Posts: 9,302
Default GetClub vs. Jester games faked?

On Nov 9, 12:47 am, Sanny wrote:

I played the games between Jester & Easy Level. Play a few games with
Easy Level they will play as good as Jester. I played with default
settings in Jester Vs Easy Level.


For the record, at default levels Jester plays a move
in just three seconds.


I am seeing that Zebediah yesterday played 2-3 games with Beginner
Level. He managed to beat Beginner level in just 13 moves. While
others take 50-60 Moves to beat the Beginner Level.


I just replayed that game. While it is possible that this
was a well-known book trap, it looked a lot like a decent
chess program which got lucky when GetClub refused
to defend its King. Generally speaking, all other chess
programs value the King, and they use tactical search
extensions whenever there is a check or capture to
avoid this sort of fiasco. BTW, if it was a well-known
book trap, your team should be congratulated for
getting the program to find all the book moves up to
where it went astray -- that's quite an improvement.

Also note that Zeb played exactly three games vs.
the Beginner level; probably this was because your
site claims you get one-third of a point for each win.
Beating the Beginner level three times takes far less
time than a single game against the Master level, or
even the Normal level since it plays much tougher
chess.


The reasion you loose with jester is that it has very small board to
analyze while GetClub Board is quite Big to analyze.


While it is true I don't like the graphic chess board
and that the dark pieces on a dark backgrround are
difficult to see, I believe I lost because Jester played
very much like Fritz -- good, solid moves. How it
manages to play poorly in your tests escapes me,
but I could simply conduct my own tests and report
the results here. Want to bet what the outcome
will be? :D


Further GetClub
shows what move it is thinking So you get an idea what it is going to
play.


GetClub displays "thinking on Queen" or something
to that effect; that is not the same as revealing the
move it intends to play! There could be ten legal
moves for that piece, or it could simply not be up to
date.

Generally speaking, except against the Beginner
level, I switch to another "tab" instead of dying of
boredom watching the chess screen while the
program thinks.


Thinking on Pawn, Thinking on Queen ... And you know what is going in
GetClub Mind. So you get more time to descide your move.


I will take that as indicating that what is on the
display is the best move found so far; I was not
aware of that. Many chess programs will display
the move they are *currently analyzing*, even if it
is believed to be a titanic blunder.


Now Easy Level at GetClub plays as good as Jester. And in 4 Matches I
feel It will give 2-2 Score.


Few will believe your test results, since you were
reporting dramatic improvements which no one else
could seem to "see", seemingly for decades before
the noticeable improvements came along. Now many
of the meanies or critics have disappeared -- just when
your cries of "wolf!" are becoming genuine. I can feel
the strength improving, but the entire village has turned
a deaf ear.


My Computer is P-IV 2.5 Ghz 512 MB RAM. So it is Quite fast.


How do you know whether the limited resources
are fairly apportioned between the two Java applets?
It seems to me that your reported games show
Jester playing much weaker chess than what I
experienced, though I gave it a bit more time per
move. Perhaps you need to utilize two computers,
or perhaps this is not even possible without some
tweaking by an expert.


-- help bot




Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New member Earl rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General) 6 October 17th 06 01:55 PM
rec.games.chess.misc FAQ [2/4] [email protected] rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General) 0 April 23rd 06 05:21 AM
rec.games.chess.misc FAQ [2/4] [email protected] rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General) 0 January 3rd 06 06:04 AM
rec.games.chess.misc FAQ [2/4] [email protected] rec.games.chess.misc (Chess General) 0 December 4th 05 05:29 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:35 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2019 ChessBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Chess"

 

Copyright © 2017