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Old April 30th 04, 04:32 PM
Adrian Powell
 
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Hi,
It probably gets asked all the time, but which is considered currently the
most
powerful chess program ?. Junior 8, Fritz 8 or Shredder 8 ?.
I bought Junior 7 over a year ago now, but would like something which looks
visually good.
How much stronger would the above mentioned programs be to Junior 7 ?.

Thanks, Adrian.


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Old April 30th 04, 07:48 PM
Luther Barnum
 
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Default Newbie question

http://w1.859.telia.com/~u85924109/ssdf/

SSDF is not without controversy but it gives a comparison.


"Adrian Powell" wrote in message
...

Hi,
It probably gets asked all the time, but which is considered currently

the
most
powerful chess program ?. Junior 8, Fritz 8 or Shredder 8 ?.
I bought Junior 7 over a year ago now, but would like something which

looks
visually good.
How much stronger would the above mentioned programs be to Junior 7 ?.

Thanks, Adrian.





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Old April 30th 04, 11:30 PM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question


"Adrian Powell" wrote in message
...

Hi,
It probably gets asked all the time, but which is considered currently

the
most
powerful chess program ?. Junior 8, Fritz 8 or Shredder 8 ?.


I was thinking the same thing couple of months ago, and I ended up buying
Shredder 8. It has won all kind of tournaments, and is at the top in almost
every list.

But I think you need to consider couple of things: If you want to play
yourself against it, and want to best, I dont know.... my rating is 1600 and
I have been winning and drawing many times against Shredder 8 using stone
wall opening system. It seems to me, that it cannot handle properly
anticomputer style play. So you see this as a weakness, then there might be
better against humans.

But against other programs it seems to me that Shredder is maybe best.

So, it has some "wholes", so that human player can "fool" it. But of course
this is a problem for many other programs as well (becouse it is very
diffucult to teach program to play properly against anticomputer play).

Can somebody tell more, if there is a powerful prog, especially against
humans?


I bought Junior 7 over a year ago now, but would like something which

looks
visually good.


Shredder comes with a very good interface (Fritz). I like it, and board and
pieces looks very nice,,, i like it.

How much stronger would the above mentioned programs be to Junior 7 ?.


yeah, I think that SSDF is quite correct saying that the difference is about
100 points. So it is not necessary a big difference (if difference at all)
if *you* play against Junior or Shredder .... as I mentioned, one of the
main points is, that how well they play against humans (that means you!).
Remember that SSDF is programs playing against other programs, not humans,
so the diffrence playing against *you* is not necessary the same 100 points
(it can be 200 or 7 points ...).



Thanks, Adrian.




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Old May 1st 04, 10:00 AM
David Richerby
 
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Juha Kettunen wrote:
"Adrian Powell" wrote:
It probably gets asked all the time, but which is considered currently
the most powerful chess program? Junior 8, Fritz 8 or Shredder 8?


But I think you need to consider couple of things: If you want to play
yourself against it, and want to best, I dont know.... my rating is 1600
and I have been winning and drawing many times against Shredder 8 using
stone wall opening system.


It should be pointed out that all the wins and draws that Juha has posted
here have been by getting a completely blocked position and then moving
his king to and fro until either the computer feels it's worse off so goes
for a draw by repetition or feels it's better off so loses on time.

If you play the sort of chess against Shredder that you play against human
opponents, it will beat you easily. One problem that I've had with Fritz
is that it isn't very good at dumbing down to my level -- it seems to play
like a grandmaster and then blunder pieces to even things up. Its
`sparring' mode is a little better -- there, it deliberately makes
tactical mistakes to allow you to win but at least it's more subtle than
hanging a rook! I've heard that Chessmaster 9000 is much better at
playing chess at lower levels but I've never used it myself.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Broken Mouldy Cheese (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a lump of cheese but it's starting to
grow mushrooms and it doesn't work!
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Old May 1st 04, 04:03 PM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question


"David Richerby" wrote in message
...
Juha Kettunen wrote:
"Adrian Powell" wrote:
It probably gets asked all the time, but which is considered currently
the most powerful chess program? Junior 8, Fritz 8 or Shredder 8?


But I think you need to consider couple of things: If you want to play
yourself against it, and want to best, I dont know.... my rating is 1600
and I have been winning and drawing many times against Shredder 8 using
stone wall opening system.


It should be pointed out that all the wins and draws that Juha has posted
here have been by getting a completely blocked position and then moving
his king to and fro until either the computer feels it's worse off so goes
for a draw by repetition or feels it's better off so loses on time.


I dont really understand ... what is the point ... if I beat computer, it
doesnt matter how I do it! Like playing football ... it does not matter how
you win if you just win (like German used to win WC s by playing boring
football, as some said ... but who cares ...they won World Cup!)!

I think, that I will always use stonewall opening so long as it works! The
test is simply "Does Juha beat program in chess" and not "does Juha beat
program *not* using any antichess human tactics including stone wall
opening" !! Do you agree? test is NOT "does Juha win without stonewall
....". In Chess there are no limitations which moves you do and which not.


If you play the sort of chess against Shredder that you play against human
opponents, it will beat you easily. One problem that I've had with Fritz
is that it isn't very good at dumbing down to my level -- it seems to play
like a grandmaster and then blunder pieces to even things up. Its
`sparring' mode is a little better -- there, it deliberately makes
tactical mistakes to allow you to win but at least it's more subtle than
hanging a rook! I've heard that Chessmaster 9000 is much better at
playing chess at lower levels but I've never used it myself.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Broken Mouldy Cheese (TM): it's

like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a lump of cheese but it's

starting to
grow mushrooms and it doesn't

work!




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Old May 1st 04, 04:04 PM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question


"David Richerby" wrote in message
...
Juha Kettunen wrote:
"Adrian Powell" wrote:
It probably gets asked all the time, but which is considered currently
the most powerful chess program? Junior 8, Fritz 8 or Shredder 8?


But I think you need to consider couple of things: If you want to play
yourself against it, and want to best, I dont know.... my rating is 1600
and I have been winning and drawing many times against Shredder 8 using
stone wall opening system.


It should be pointed out that all the wins and draws that Juha has posted
here have been by getting a completely blocked position and then moving
his king to and fro until either the computer feels it's worse off so goes
for a draw by repetition or feels it's better off so loses on time.



If you play the sort of chess against Shredder that you play against human
opponents, it will beat you easily.


.... so dont play like that


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Old May 1st 04, 10:11 PM
HD
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question



Juha Kettunen wrote:



I dont really understand ... what is the point ... if I beat computer, it
doesnt matter how I do it! Like playing football ... it does not matter how
you win if you just win (like German used to win WC s by playing boring
football, as some said ... but who cares ...they won World Cup!)!

I think, that I will always use stonewall opening so long as it works! The
test is simply "Does Juha beat program in chess" and not "does Juha beat
program *not* using any antichess human tactics including stone wall
opening" !! Do you agree? test is NOT "does Juha win without stonewall
...". In Chess there are no limitations which moves you do and which not.


Yeah, well, until you get bored of playing with repeated king moves
between g1 and h1...

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Old May 2nd 04, 11:40 AM
David Richerby
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question

Juha Kettunen wrote:
"David Richerby" wrote:
It should be pointed out that all the wins and draws that Juha has
posted here have been by getting a completely blocked position and then
moving his king to and fro until either the computer feels it's worse
off so goes for a draw by repetition or feels it's better off so loses
on time.


I dont really understand ... what is the point ... if I beat computer,
it doesnt matter how I do it!


Adrian was asking what the most powerful chess program was and you posted
that you could regularly beat Shredder. From this information alone, one
might infer that Shredder is a weak engine, which it is not.


I think, that I will always use stonewall opening so long as it works!
The test is simply "Does Juha beat program in chess" and not "does Juha
beat program *not* using any antichess human tactics including stone
wall opening" !! Do you agree?


No. The question that Adrian is interested in is, `Is Shredder a strong
chess program?' The fact that you can induce it to lose on time by moving
your king to and fro for 250 moves in a 5-minute game is not a represen-
tative test of its strength.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Microsoft Game (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ family board game that's really hard
to use!
  #9   Report Post  
Old May 2nd 04, 05:39 PM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question


"HD" wrote in message
. dk...


Juha Kettunen wrote:



I dont really understand ... what is the point ... if I beat computer,

it
doesnt matter how I do it! Like playing football ... it does not matter

how
you win if you just win (like German used to win WC s by playing boring
football, as some said ... but who cares ...they won World Cup!)!

I think, that I will always use stonewall opening so long as it works!

The
test is simply "Does Juha beat program in chess" and not "does Juha beat
program *not* using any antichess human tactics including stone wall
opening" !! Do you agree? test is NOT "does Juha win without stonewall
...". In Chess there are no limitations which moves you do and which

not.


Yeah, well, until you get bored of playing with repeated king moves
between g1 and h1...


but it IS exiting, becouse you are winning a program !




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Old May 2nd 04, 05:57 PM
Juha Kettunen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question


"David Richerby" wrote in message
...
Juha Kettunen wrote:
"David Richerby" wrote:
It should be pointed out that all the wins and draws that Juha has
posted here have been by getting a completely blocked position and then
moving his king to and fro until either the computer feels it's worse
off so goes for a draw by repetition or feels it's better off so loses
on time.


I dont really understand ... what is the point ... if I beat computer,
it doesnt matter how I do it!


Adrian was asking what the most powerful chess program was and you posted
that you could regularly beat Shredder. From this information alone, one
might infer that Shredder is a weak engine, which it is not.


I think, that I will always use stonewall opening so long as it works!
The test is simply "Does Juha beat program in chess" and not "does Juha
beat program *not* using any antichess human tactics including stone
wall opening" !! Do you agree?


No. The question that Adrian is interested in is, `Is Shredder a strong
chess program?' The fact that you can induce it to lose on time by moving
your king to and fro for 250 moves in a 5-minute game is not a represen-
tative test of its strength.


,,, but I actually did more than only moved king ...



Dave.

--
David Richerby Microsoft Game (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ family board game that's really

hard
to use!



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