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Old January 2nd 08, 06:17 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Is there any real need for me to upgrade from recently purchasedFritz 8 Deluxe?

I am a long time Chessmaster user, but for some reason my copy of CM9
freezes up on my computer with TheKing.exe eating up 100% CPU time!
This prompted me to look into Fritz as an alternative since my level
of play is not really novice or beginner, and yet I am not really a
great player either. I don't even know my rating! At any rate, I
found a copy of Fritz 8 Deluxe at a local GameStop store for $10 and
bought it.

All I can say is wow! This program is light years ahead of CM9 (or
any previous versions) in terms of sophistication and tools to help me
get actually better at chess. The CM line had good tools also, but as
a professional programmer I feel pretty comfortable with Fritz's
interface, even as clunky as it is at times.

I see that the program is up to version 11 now, but the reviews seem
spotty, claiming little if any real value to upgrading from an
interface standpoint. My computer is a fairly modern one with an AMD
Sempron 64FX 3100+ processor with 1.5 GB memory, an ATI 1300X Pro
video card and a Soundblaster xTreme gamer sound card. I like what I
see with Fritz and I feel like I would never buy another CM product
for various reasons, but is there any compelling reason for a guy at
my level to upgrade past Fritz 8 at this point?

Thanks in advance.
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Old January 3rd 08, 03:04 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Is there any real need for me to upgrade from recently purchasedFritz 8 Deluxe?

Chess Hack wrote:
I am a long time Chessmaster user, but for some reason my copy of CM9

etc

Thanks in advance.




I still like my copy of Fritz 4 to be honest.
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Old January 3rd 08, 04:49 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Is there any real need for me to upgrade from recently purchased Fritz 8 Deluxe?

On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 10:17:17 -0800 (PST), Chess Hack
wrote:

I am a long time Chessmaster user, but for some reason my copy of CM9
freezes up on my computer with TheKing.exe eating up 100% CPU time!
This prompted me to look into Fritz as an alternative since my level
of play is not really novice or beginner, and yet I am not really a
great player either. I don't even know my rating! At any rate, I
found a copy of Fritz 8 Deluxe at a local GameStop store for $10 and
bought it.

All I can say is wow! This program is light years ahead of CM9 (or
any previous versions) in terms of sophistication and tools to help me
get actually better at chess. The CM line had good tools also, but as
a professional programmer I feel pretty comfortable with Fritz's
interface, even as clunky as it is at times.

I see that the program is up to version 11 now, but the reviews seem
spotty, claiming little if any real value to upgrading from an
interface standpoint. My computer is a fairly modern one with an AMD
Sempron 64FX 3100+ processor with 1.5 GB memory, an ATI 1300X Pro
video card and a Soundblaster xTreme gamer sound card. I like what I
see with Fritz and I feel like I would never buy another CM product
for various reasons, but is there any compelling reason for a guy at
my level to upgrade past Fritz 8 at this point?

Thanks in advance.


Unless you're concerned with sheer playing strength, or want to
upgrade your Playchess subscription, there's probably not a really
compelling reason to upgrade. The GUI is slightly updated, but not
enough to justify a $50 purchase, IMO. You got Fritz at a pretty
decent price.

Are you running Vista? From what I've read previously on this
newsgroup, CM9K doesn't work under Vista.

Tony
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Old January 3rd 08, 08:48 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Is there any real need for me to upgrade from recently purchasedFritz 8 Deluxe?

On Jan 2, 6:17*pm, Chess Hack wrote:
I am a long time Chessmaster user, but for some reason my copy of CM9
freezes up on my computer with TheKing.exe eating up 100% CPU time!
This prompted me to look into Fritz as an alternative since my level
of play is not really novice or beginner, and yet I am not really a
great player either. *I don't even know my rating!


The "play rated game" option in Fritz8 will quickly fix that. I quite
like Fritz8 and still haven't found a reason to buy a newer version of
Fritz engine yet. I don't need the Turk or any other 3D gimmicks.

If you are going to get another program with the newer ChessProgram9
front end I'd suggest either Shredder 10 (best since you get high
speed 345 tablebases included) or HIARCS 10. Fritz has blind spots
that a different engine will cover. You also will have a bunch of
other free engines already and a few more are available for download
at CB.

And also other stronger engines available online like Rybka, Fruit and
a host of others for various prices.

*At any rate, I
found a copy of Fritz 8 Deluxe at a local GameStop store for $10 and
bought it.


Thats a good price.

All I can say is wow! *This program is light years ahead of CM9 (or
any previous versions) in terms of sophistication and tools to help me
get actually better at chess. *The CM line had good tools also, but as
a professional programmer I feel pretty comfortable with Fritz's
interface, even as clunky as it is at times.


The one thing it lacks is customisable playing personalities -
something I always though CM did rather well although their cluttered
UI and irritating copy protection scheme means I almost never use my
copy.

I see that the program is up to version 11 now, but the reviews seem
spotty, claiming little if any real value to upgrading from an
interface standpoint.


No. The latest version still has at least as many bugs as the old one.
Worth buying a new one when your free years access to playchess runs
out maybe. Shredder 10 should be a good price now v11 is out ...

My pet hate is the bug that causes certain types of multiple line
"infinite" analysis to run incredibly slowly once a mate in N has been
found down certain lines. The engine writers all agree it is a bug but
CB stubbornly refuse to fix it. The other stupid thing you can't do is
add desktop icons to start different engines (although a grubby patch
is possible for CP8, and a risky script exists to do it on any version
- see earlier threads).

*My computer is a fairly modern one with an AMD
Sempron 64FX 3100+ processor with 1.5 GB memory, an ATI 1300X Pro
video card and a Soundblaster xTreme gamer sound card. *I like what I
see with Fritz and I feel like I would never buy another CM product
for various reasons, but is there any compelling reason for a guy at
my level to upgrade past Fritz 8 at this point?


Find out your level and it will be a much easier call. If you find you
can beat Fritz8 too easily then maybe you will need a better engine,
but that would put you already at the GM or anti-computer specialist
level.

Regards,
Martin Brown
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Old January 3rd 08, 11:11 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Is there any real need for me to upgrade from recently purchasedFritz 8 Deluxe?

Martin Brown wrote:
On Jan 2, 6:17pm, Chess Hack wrote:
I am a long time Chessmaster user, but for some reason my copy of
CM9 freezes up on my computer with TheKing.exe eating up 100% CPU
time! This prompted me to look into Fritz as an alternative since
my level of play is not really novice or beginner, and yet I am not
really a great player either. I don't even know my rating!


The "play rated game" option in Fritz8 will quickly fix that.


Not really. The engine, playing on full strength, will hammer him
into the ground, every time. The ECF (and possibly other rating
organizations) don't issue ratings to people who have scored either 0%
or 100% as the `rating' in question is neither an upper bound nor a
lower bound.

Even if Fritz does spit out a number and call it a rating, it won't
help him compare his strength with any human who hasn't played against
Fritz.

I see that the program is up to version 11 now, but the reviews
seem spotty, claiming little if any real value to upgrading from an
interface standpoint.


No. The latest version still has at least as many bugs as the old
one.


With luck, they might be different bugs! Though the problem there is
that I automatically work around the bugs I know about and it's
annoying to have to adapt to a new set.


If you find you can beat Fritz8 too easily then maybe you will need
a better engine, but that would put you already at the GM or
anti-computer specialist level.


In the unlikely case that he can beat Fritz 8 easily, he's still going
to beat any other engine comfortably. I suppose the current crop of
engines would push him a little harder. ;-)


Dave.

--
David Richerby Carnivorous Painting (TM): it's like
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a Renaissance masterpiece but it
eats flesh!


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Old January 3rd 08, 12:10 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Is there any real need for me to upgrade from recently purchasedFritz 8 Deluxe?

On Jan 3, 11:11*am, David Richerby
wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:

On Jan 2, 6:17pm, Chess Hack wrote:
I am a long time Chessmaster user, but for some reason my copy of
CM9 freezes up on my computer with TheKing.exe eating up 100% CPU
time! *This prompted me to look into Fritz as an alternative since
my level of play is not really novice or beginner, and yet I am not
really a great player either. *I don't even know my rating!


The "play rated game" option in Fritz8 will quickly fix that.


Not really. *The engine, playing on full strength, will hammer him
into the ground, every time. *The ECF (and possibly other rating
organizations) don't issue ratings to people who have scored either 0%
or 100% as the `rating' in question is neither an upper bound nor a
lower bound.


But in "play rated game" you can set the engine to play to a lower
nominal strength. The simulation isn't perfect but it does give its
weaker opponent a sporting chance. The ratings floor for a few engines
in this mode of play a
Turing 990
Comet 1540
Crafty 1590
Fritz8 1640
Rybka2 1690
Shredder10 1950

I think Comet is being a bit optimistic here, and Turing may well be
too slow to play against (although amusing to experiment with for
historical reasons). I grant you that even ELO 1500 might be a bit
stiff for casual players.

Even if Fritz does spit out a number and call it a rating, it won't
help him compare his strength with any human who hasn't played against
Fritz.


It is only a rough guide. But it is still useful. Arguably in the
quest for ever greater strength the top engines are now beyond hope of
playing down to the level of most club level players and their
simulation of lower rated play is poor. Something that the CM King
program does rather better.

I see that the program is up to version 11 now, but the reviews
seem spotty, claiming little if any real value to upgrading from an
interface standpoint.


No. The latest version still has at least as many bugs as the old
one.


With luck, they might be different bugs! *Though the problem there is
that I automatically work around the bugs I know about and it's
annoying to have to adapt to a new set.


You can use newer engines in the old UI (and old engines in the new
UI). I prefer the CP9 interface apart from when it crashes on me.

If you find you can beat Fritz8 too easily then maybe you will need
a better engine, but that would put you already at the GM or
anti-computer specialist level.


In the unlikely case that he can beat Fritz 8 easily, he's still going
to beat any other engine comfortably. *I suppose the current crop of
engines would push him a little harder. ;-)


The current crop are quite a bit stronger than Fritz8. But are
overkill for most club players. Fritz8 at full strength is still
beyond me to beat, but I might hold it to a draw on a good day if I
concentrate hard enough. I prefer Shredder. I usually spar against
engines set to play around ELO 2300 to practice and try out ideas.

Regards,
Martin Brown
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Old January 3rd 08, 12:36 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Is there any real need for me to upgrade from recently purchasedFritz 8 Deluxe?

Martin Brown wrote:
David Richerby wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:
The "play rated game" option in Fritz8 will quickly fix that.


Not really. The engine, playing on full strength, will hammer him
into the ground, every time.


But in "play rated game" you can set the engine to play to a lower
nominal strength.


Ah. I didn't realise that. Thanks for the speedy correction.


Dave.

--
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www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ a refreshing juice beverage that
comes from Mexico but it'll be there
for ever!
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Old January 3rd 08, 01:02 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Is there any real need for me to upgrade from recently purchasedFritz 8 Deluxe?

On Jan 2, 11:49 pm, Tony M wrote:

Are you running Vista? From what I've read previously on this
newsgroup, CM9K doesn't work under Vista.


Oh, sorry -- I'm running XP Home and will be until this machine dies
and then it is on to Linux for me. I got playing around with CM9 a
bit last night and I shut down my firewall, virus and spyware scanners
and (patiently) switched the board over to 2D and it played "alright"
in that way. I'm gonna play more with it tonight to see if screen
resolutions (mine:1280x1024 32bit color) to see if that helps more.
Still, I like Fritz a lot so far, although it is tough to navigate.
I'm glad I'm an IT guy and can wade through it, but I wonder how the
average Joe deals with it. That would explain the occasional "bad
review" of Fritz I think.
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Old January 3rd 08, 05:54 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Is there any real need for me to upgrade from recently purchased Fritz 8 Deluxe?

On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 00:48:50 -0800 (PST), Martin Brown
wrote:


If you are going to get another program with the newer ChessProgram9
front end I'd suggest either Shredder 10 (best since you get high
speed 345 tablebases included) or HIARCS 10. Fritz has blind spots
that a different engine will cover. You also will have a bunch of
other free engines already and a few more are available for download
at CB.


It never hurts to have a few engines for analysis. In addition to the
free CB engines, there are strong free UCI engines like Toga II,
Glaurung, Spike, etc. that work well under the Fritz interface. A
fairly up to date list of UCI engines is he

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/lefoudur...is/uci/uel.htm

BTW, HIARCS 11.2 is the most current version.

And also other stronger engines available online like Rybka, Fruit and
a host of others for various prices.


Fruit used to be commercial at one time, but is now free again. It's
a nice, solid engine, probably a little bit stronger than Fritz 8.

Tony
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Old January 3rd 08, 05:59 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Is there any real need for me to upgrade from recently purchasedFritz 8 Deluxe?



All I can say is wow! This program is light years ahead of CM9 (or
any previous versions) in terms of sophistication and tools to help me
get actually better at chess. The CM line had good tools also, but as
a professional programmer I feel pretty comfortable with Fritz's
interface, even as clunky as it is at times.


I can't speak for v8, but I have v9 which I bought a few years back
and only recently started using on a regular basis. Comparing it to
v11 (out of interest) I didn't see any reason to upgrade unless you
need a stronger engine (unlikely?), or you're into the drop-down
robotic 3d eye candy (No thanks!).

I know what you mean about the clunky interface though. On the whole,
it's a well written piece of software, but it is let down by some
serious bugs/non-standard UI guidelines.

These range from minor accelerometer mis-matches on menus, to annoying
bugs like not saving settings, or using different handicap values for
'Patzer' depending upon the button you happened to have clicked before-
hand.

I was going to ask Chessbase whether these have been patched, if
they're fixed in a later version then it could be worth an upgrade -
don't think we should have to pay the full price again though...

Regards,

Duncan
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