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Old September 13th 08, 05:58 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default a domain-specific programming language for chess?

this post may be primarily aimed at developers although of course
anyone please answer. thinking lately about domain-specific
programming languages, the number of programmers who tackle the "chess
engine" problem, and also partly the amount (significant?) of
redundant code there must be when dealing with very common "issues",
(bit-boards, alpha-beta pruning, etc.) do you think it's possible
there can ever be a specific programming language successfully
developed for exclusive chess-engine programming and if possible how
useful?

Surely there are gpl or commercial libraries or code but how feasible
can specific keywords/grammar/syntax (or even data structures in
libraries or design patterns) be?

just a thought
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Old September 13th 08, 03:24 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default a domain-specific programming language for chess?

wrote:
Surely there are gpl or commercial libraries or code but how feasible
can specific keywords/grammar/syntax (or even data structures in
libraries or design patterns) be?


My off-the-cuff answer would be that I'd expect a domain-specific
language to be aimed at solving a class of related problems, such as
constraint satisfaction. Chess programming isn't really a class of
problems but, rather, a collection of slightly different algorithms
for solving the same problem.

It kind of feels like a domain-specific langauge for chess would just
have the single keyword "play_chess", which would do the obvious.
Sure, there are different techniques for guiding search and so on but
most of those need to be programmed at a low level. To introduce a
domain-specific language would, almost by definition, fix the choice
of techniques that would be used.


Dave.

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Old September 13th 08, 03:43 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default a domain-specific programming language for chess?

wrote in message
...
this post may be primarily aimed at developers although of course
anyone please answer. thinking lately about domain-specific
programming languages, the number of programmers who tackle the "chess
engine" problem, and also partly the amount (significant?) of
redundant code there must be when dealing with very common "issues",
(bit-boards, alpha-beta pruning, etc.) do you think it's possible
there can ever be a specific programming language successfully
developed for exclusive chess-engine programming and if possible how
useful?


No.

Too much variation in how people want to do things.

Everybody has their own ideas of how things should be done and although they
may share some common structure, the details themselves are often different.

There's probably as much variation in programming chess as there is in
playing chess.


Surely there are gpl or commercial libraries or code but how feasible
can specific keywords/grammar/syntax (or even data structures in
libraries or design patterns) be?


The idea of a chess programming language is pretty old. Dating back to at
least the early 70's. Possibly earlier.

There have been some rough ideas implemented, but they tend to be specific
to the program being developed. They weren't developed into a general
language.

Most of them tend to look a bit like LISP, actually. And that alone is
reason enough to avoid them.... (grin)


just a thought






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Old September 13th 08, 08:57 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default a domain-specific programming language for chess?

* David Richerby (16:24) schrieb:

It kind of feels like a domain-specific langauge for chess would just
have the single keyword "play_chess", which would do the obvious.
Sure, there are different techniques for guiding search and so on but
most of those need to be programmed at a low level. To introduce a
domain-specific language would, almost by definition, fix the choice
of techniques that would be used.


The ideal way to write a chess engine might be to build your own domain-
specific language on the way. But that's probably true for every complex
programming problem.

mfg, simon .... l
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Old September 14th 08, 04:28 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default a domain-specific programming language for chess?

No,

Many chess engines have advantages due to coding efficiencies. These
small efficiencies and tricks can make a significant ELO advantage from
engine to engine.

If you removed those advantages, you would stagnate the forward movement
of chess in many ways, and we would be stuck with crafty.

We have not seen some possible advantages of writing for specific
architectures yet. Like large register longword machines. It might be
possible to make these very fast searchers without going to memory. But
it would take a very specific architecture specific piece of code. I
suspect the only real abstraction will be the use of "C".


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Old September 16th 08, 12:31 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default a domain-specific programming language for chess?

johnny_t wrote:
No,

Many chess engines have advantages due to coding efficiencies. These
small efficiencies and tricks can make a significant ELO advantage from
engine to engine.

If you removed those advantages, you would stagnate the forward movement
of chess in many ways, and we would be stuck with crafty.

We have not seen some possible advantages of writing for specific
architectures yet. Like large register longword machines. It might be
possible to make these very fast searchers without going to memory. But
it would take a very specific architecture specific piece of code. I
suspect the only real abstraction will be the use of "C".


Google for Big Blue/
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Old September 16th 08, 12:38 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default a domain-specific programming language for chess?

stan wrote:
Google for Big Blue/


Try Googling it yourself. I get the following, none of which has
anything to do with chess.

Big Blue Hotel: 4 Star Family Hotel Blackpool Offering Luxury...
Grand bleu, Le (1988)
Big Blue Hotel Blackpool - Special Internet Rates at HotelClub
The Big Blue, Live Blues Band, Sussex UK
The Big Blue Experience - Life is not a dress rehearsal
Amazon.co.uk: The Big Blue[1989]: Rosanna Arquette, David Brisbin, ...
The Big Blue - Wikipedia, the free encylopedia
Big Blue, [University of Leeds]
Big Blue Surging School: Surfing in Bude Cornwall
MMU - Library - The Big Blue


Dave.

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Old September 16th 08, 05:56 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default a domain-specific programming language for chess?

David Richerby wrote:
stan wrote:
Google for Big Blue/


Try Googling it yourself. I get the following, none of which has
anything to do with chess.

Big Blue Hotel: 4 Star Family Hotel Blackpool Offering Luxury...
Grand bleu, Le (1988)
Big Blue Hotel Blackpool - Special Internet Rates at HotelClub
The Big Blue, Live Blues Band, Sussex UK
The Big Blue Experience - Life is not a dress rehearsal
Amazon.co.uk: The Big Blue[1989]: Rosanna Arquette, David Brisbin, ...
The Big Blue - Wikipedia, the free encylopedia
Big Blue, [University of Leeds]
Big Blue Surging School: Surfing in Bude Cornwall
MMU - Library - The Big Blue



OK, I guess schools open. Please take your seats.

Try
"big blue" chess

That's enough for today.
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Old September 17th 08, 12:48 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default a domain-specific programming language for chess?

stan wrote:
David Richerby wrote:
stan wrote:
Google for Big Blue/


Try Googling it yourself. I get the following, none of which has
anything to do with chess.

Big Blue Hotel: 4 Star Family Hotel Blackpool Offering Luxury...
Grand bleu, Le (1988)
Big Blue Hotel Blackpool - Special Internet Rates at HotelClub
The Big Blue, Live Blues Band, Sussex UK
The Big Blue Experience - Life is not a dress rehearsal
Amazon.co.uk: The Big Blue[1989]: Rosanna Arquette, David Brisbin, ...
The Big Blue - Wikipedia, the free encylopedia
Big Blue, [University of Leeds]
Big Blue Surging School: Surfing in Bude Cornwall
MMU - Library - The Big Blue


OK, I guess schools open. Please take your seats.

Try
"big blue" chess

That's enough for today.


It tells me that "Big Blue" is the nickname of IBM, a large American
electronics company who built a rather good chess computer
twelve-and-a-half years ago. They programmed it in C so I'm still
seeking insight about what this has to do with domain-specific
programming languages for chess. In particular, the ad hoc chess
processors used are much more akin to a hardware implementation of a
library than to a domain-specific language.

By the way, teach, you might be a bit more credible in your role if
you actually knew the name of this chess computer.


Dave.

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Old September 17th 08, 10:02 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default a domain-specific programming language for chess?

David Richerby wrote:
stan wrote:
David Richerby wrote:
stan wrote:
Google for Big Blue/

Try Googling it yourself. I get the following, none of which has
anything to do with chess.

Big Blue Hotel: 4 Star Family Hotel Blackpool Offering Luxury...
Grand bleu, Le (1988)
Big Blue Hotel Blackpool - Special Internet Rates at HotelClub
The Big Blue, Live Blues Band, Sussex UK
The Big Blue Experience - Life is not a dress rehearsal
Amazon.co.uk: The Big Blue[1989]: Rosanna Arquette, David Brisbin, ...
The Big Blue - Wikipedia, the free encylopedia
Big Blue, [University of Leeds]
Big Blue Surging School: Surfing in Bude Cornwall
MMU - Library - The Big Blue


OK, I guess schools open. Please take your seats.

Try
"big blue" chess

That's enough for today.


It tells me that "Big Blue" is the nickname of IBM, a large American
electronics company who built a rather good chess computer
twelve-and-a-half years ago. They programmed it in C so I'm still
seeking insight about what this has to do with domain-specific
programming languages for chess. In particular, the ad hoc chess
processors used are much more akin to a hardware implementation of a
library than to a domain-specific language.

By the way, teach, you might be a bit more credible in your role if
you actually knew the name of this chess computer.


I'm very familiar with the hardware and the code actually. I could send
you to a site with pictures but you don't seem interested. You might not
have access but there were articles in profession journals describing
many of the details of the engineering involved. Some of the code was in
C to run the central task controller to hand jobs to the specialized
hardware running specialized code which was not C. It was a massively
parallel system doing things in non traditional ways.

Now that I think about it, unless you have a degree in Computer Science
at least a very good knowledge of Discrete Math most of the literature
would not mean much. Based on your google performance I'm guessing you
might have a hard time following along.

I'll give you another hint. Later IBM built Deep Blue for a rematch and
hence your confusion about the computer names. Your implication was that
I had it wrong, but your research skills seem to be the problem here.

There was more popular literature about the technical details for Deep
Blue and some of it had pictures. Maybe you could follow along with some
of that literature.
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