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Old October 20th 08, 07:41 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc
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Default Kramnik's strategy of N x d4 wasn't bad but the tactics were off

The move N x d4 was not a bad one in game 5. However, the sequence of
moves was not in correct order. On move 27 Kramnik should have played
B X d2. Black has to play K x d2. Then on move 28 Kramnik should have
played N x d4 upon which Anand cannot take with the Queen as playing Q
x d4 would result on Kramnik playing on move 29 R d1 thereby
trapping the queen. By this the momemtum would have remained with
Kramnik and he also would have been a pawn up as his knight cannot be
taken. Kramnik would have to play on 28 K e7 and Kramnik would have
been a pawn up and also have the momemtum with him.
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Old October 20th 08, 07:44 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc
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Default Kramnik's strategy of N x d4 wasn't bad but the tactics were off

On Oct 20, 11:41*pm, chessplayer wrote:
The move N x d4 was not a bad one in game 5. However, the sequence of
moves was not in correct order. On move 27 Kramnik should have played
B X d2. Black has to play K x d2. Then on move 28 Kramnik should have
played N x d4 upon which Anand cannot take with the Queen as playing Q
x d4 would result on Kramnik playing on *move 29 *R d1 thereby
trapping the queen. By this the momemtum would have remained with
Kramnik and he also would have been a pawn up as his knight cannot be
taken. (CORRECTION) ANAND would have to play on 28 K e7 and Kramnik would have
been a pawn up and also have the momemtum with him.


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Old October 20th 08, 08:27 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc
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Default Kramnik's strategy of N x d4 wasn't bad but the tactics were off

On Oct 20, 2:41*pm, chessplayer wrote:
The move N x d4 was not a bad one in game 5. However, the sequence of
moves was not in correct order. On move 27 Kramnik should have played
B X d2. Black has to play K x d2. Then on move 28 Kramnik should have
played N x d4 upon which Anand cannot take with the Queen as playing Q
x d4 would result on Kramnik playing on *move 29 *R d1 thereby
trapping the queen. By this the momemtum would have remained with
Kramnik and he also would have been a pawn up as his knight cannot be
taken. Kramnik would have to play on 28 K e7 and Kramnik would have
been a pawn up and also have the momemtum with him.


It's a bit trickier than that. After 27. Bxd7 27... Kxd7 28. Nxd4
Ke7 the position of the knight is awkward. To move it immediately
allows 29...Qxb2, therefore to keep his extra pawn White has to play
29. Rd1, to which Black replies 29... Rd8, attacking the knight again.
Then if 30. Nc2?? or 30. Nb3?? Qg6! wins, therefore 30. Qh5 is pretty
much forced, so that if 30...Rxd4?? 31.Qc5+. Best play after 30.Qh5
appears to be 30... Rd5 31. Qf3 Kf8, which renews the threat to the
Nd4 and allows the possibility of retreating the king to g8 or g7, and
then pushing the e-pawn to get some action going in the center and
kingside before White's queenside pawns become a serious threat. With
his knight pinned, and with Black's B and Q able to threaten the king,
White has to be very careful, and has a hard time making progress.
27.Bxd7 may still have been best for White, but it should be
followed up by, say, 28.a5, getting things going on the queenside, or
28.Rd1, rather than the immediate 28.Nxd4. Still, this is a complex,
double-edged position, and I won't presume to have rendered a final
verdict at all.

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Old October 21st 08, 04:44 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc
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Default Kramnik's strategy of N x d4 wasn't bad but the tactics were off

On Oct 21, 12:27*am, wrote:
On Oct 20, 2:41*pm, chessplayer wrote:

The move N x d4 was not a bad one in game 5. However, the sequence of
moves was not in correct order. On move 27 Kramnik should have played
B X d2. Black has to play K x d2. Then on move 28 Kramnik should have
played N x d4 upon which Anand cannot take with the Queen as playing Q
x d4 would result on Kramnik playing on *move 29 *R d1 thereby
trapping the queen. By this the momemtum would have remained with
Kramnik and he also would have been a pawn up as his knight cannot be
taken. Kramnik would have to play on 28 K e7 and Kramnik would have
been a pawn up and also have the momemtum with him.


* It's a bit trickier than that. After 27. Bxd7 27... Kxd7 28. Nxd4
Ke7 the position of the knight is awkward.


My friend. I have done an extensive analysis on the above line right
upto the endgame. It took me more than 3 hours on the computer. I'll
write out the entire line later (as I have to go now). I do agree that
the knight comes into a position where it might be difficult to
envision that you can eventually save it but these are world class
players and they should be able to play (and envision) the line which
I will write out. The end game is clearly in white's favor.
Overwhelmingly so (when at this level being a pawn up is all it
takes).

I honestly believe Kramnik messed up his tactics. As you saw, the line
he did play was horrible. It ended in certain defeat. So, at worst my
line may have only resulted in a draw and at best it would have been a
very satisfying victory for him.


To move it immediately
allows 29...Qxb2, therefore to keep his extra pawn White has to play
29. Rd1, to which Black replies 29... Rd8, attacking the knight again.
Then if 30. Nc2?? or 30. Nb3?? Qg6! wins, therefore 30. Qh5 is pretty
much forced, so that if 30...Rxd4?? 31.Qc5+. Best play after 30.Qh5
appears to be *30... Rd5 31. Qf3 Kf8, which renews the threat to the
Nd4 and allows the possibility of retreating the king to g8 or g7, and
then pushing the e-pawn to get some action going in the center and
kingside before White's queenside pawns become a serious threat. With
his knight pinned, and with Black's B and Q able to threaten the king,
White has to be very careful, and has a hard time making progress.
* 27.Bxd7 may still have been best for White, but it should be
followed up by, say, 28.a5, getting things going on the queenside, or
28.Rd1, rather than the immediate 28.Nxd4. Still, this is a complex,
double-edged position, and I won't presume to have rendered a final
verdict at all.


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Old October 21st 08, 03:16 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Kramnik's strategy of N x d4 wasn't bad but the tactics were off

chessplayer wrote:
wrote:
chessplayer wrote:
The move N x d4 was not a bad one in game 5. However, the sequence
of moves was not in correct order. On move 27 Kramnik should have
played B X d2. Black has to play K x d2. Then on move 28 Kramnik
should have played N x d4 upon which Anand cannot take with the
Queen as playing Q x d4 would result on Kramnik playing on move 29
R d1 thereby trapping the queen. [...]


It's a bit trickier than that. After 27. Bxd7 27... Kxd7 28. Nxd4
Ke7 the position of the knight is awkward.


My friend. I have done an extensive analysis on the above line right
upto the endgame. It took me more than 3 hours on the computer.


Oh, well. In that case, we'll just crawl back into our ignorant holes
since nobody else's opinion could possibly be worth as much as yours,
O Great One. Thank you for sharing your great knowledge with us, the
scabby denizens of this little internet hovel.


Dave.

--
David Richerby Generic Beer (TM): it's like a
www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/ refreshing lager but it's just like
all the others!


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Old October 21st 08, 06:40 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Kramnik's strategy of N x d4 wasn't bad but the tactics were off

On Oct 21, 7:16*pm, David Richerby
wrote:
chessplayer wrote:
wrote:
chessplayer wrote:
The move N x d4 was not a bad one in game 5. However, the sequence
of moves was not in correct order. On move 27 Kramnik should have
played B X d2. Black has to play K x d2. Then on move 28 Kramnik
should have played N x d4 upon which Anand cannot take with the
Queen as playing Q x d4 would result on Kramnik playing on move 29
R d1 thereby trapping the queen. [...]


It's a bit trickier than that. After 27. Bxd7 27... Kxd7 28. Nxd4
Ke7 the position of the knight is awkward.


My friend. I have done an extensive analysis on the above line right
upto the endgame. It took me more than 3 hours on the computer.


Oh, well. *In that case, we'll just crawl back into our ignorant holes
since nobody else's opinion could possibly be worth as much as yours,
O Great One. *Thank you for sharing your great knowledge with us, the
scabby denizens of this little internet hovel.


No, I didn't mean it like that. Simply that the line is clearly in
white's favor. Not marginally but overwhelmingly in white's favor. In
fact he comes out not only a pawn ahead but positionally ahead as well
in the end game making it a clear win.

Dave.

--
David Richerby * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Generic Beer (TM): it's like awww.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/* * * *refreshing lager but it's just like
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *all the others!


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Old October 23rd 08, 11:11 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Kramnik's strategy of N x d4 wasn't bad but the tactics were off

On Oct 21, 10:40*pm, chessplayer wrote:
On Oct 21, 7:16*pm, David Richerby
wrote:





chessplayer wrote:
wrote:
chessplayer wrote:
The move N x d4 was not a bad one in game 5. However, the sequence
of moves was not in correct order. On move 27 Kramnik should have
played B X d2. Black has to play K x d2. Then on move 28 Kramnik
should have played N x d4 upon which Anand cannot take with the
Queen as playing Q x d4 would result on Kramnik playing on move 29
R d1 thereby trapping the queen. [...]


It's a bit trickier than that. After 27. Bxd7 27... Kxd7 28. Nxd4
Ke7 the position of the knight is awkward.


My friend. I have done an extensive analysis on the above line right
upto the endgame. It took me more than 3 hours on the computer.


Oh, well. *In that case, we'll just crawl back into our ignorant holes
since nobody else's opinion could possibly be worth as much as yours,
O Great One. *Thank you for sharing your great knowledge with us, the
scabby denizens of this little internet hovel.


No, I didn't mean it like that. Simply that the line is clearly in
white's favor. Not marginally but overwhelmingly in white's favor. *In
fact he comes out not only a pawn ahead but positionally ahead as well
in the end game making it a clear win.


Here's the line as played on computer analysis.

Nf3 Qf6 (so far its the game as it was played) but here is where I
feel Kramniks tactics were off. Playing N X d4 was not bad but it
should have been played after B x d7 K x d7

So, following Nf3 Qf6

B x d7 K x d7
N x d4 K e7
Rd1 Rd8
Qh5 Qg6
Q x g6 h x g6
Rd2 e5
Nb3 Rc8
a5 g5
h3 Ke6
Re2 Kd5
Re1 Rc2
Rd1+ Kc4
Nd2+ Kb4
a6 B x a6
Ne4 g4
N x g4 Bc4
Rd7 R x b2
Re7 bd3
R X e5 Rb1+
Kh2 Rb2
f3 Rc2
Nf6 Kb3
Nh5 Rc4
Kh3 Rd4
Rc5 Kb4
Rc6 Bc4
Rf6 Kc5
N x f4 Rd8

I believe its all over by now

g5 kd4
g4 ke5
Rf5+ kd4
g6 f x g6
N x g6 Bd3

I guess even we might be able to win it from here onwards. The
computer takes the end game where one pawn easily queens (The end game
is with a rook each and white having two pawns where one certainly
queens and even a five year old kid could mate with a rook and queen).




Dave.


--
David Richerby * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Generic Beer (TM): it's like awww.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~davidr/** * *refreshing lager but it's just like
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *all the others!- Hide quoted text -


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