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Old December 1st 08, 07:40 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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Posts: 5,365
Default How to improve GetClub?

Nowadays a lot of people play at GetClub arround 20-30 games of Chess
are played daily. So to look at recorded games takes a lot of time.

A few things were corrected at GetClub today. Still GetClub is not
winning. But now there is nothing that can be easily improved. So how
to improve GetClub further.

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html

Most of the winners take help of Computer to win.

Mentula always plays with Easy Level and win his games.

Please see the recorded games and tell me the mistakes GetClub makes.
So that I may improve the Chess.

http://www.getclub.com/cc/showgame.php?num=10&start=0

Here you can see the latest recorded games.

Today again I played a game against Jester.

Game Played between Jester and beginner at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jester : (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...720&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(Jester ) -- (beginner)

1. c2-c4{34} e7-e5{0}
2. Nb1-c3{282} Ng8-f6{12}
3. Ng1-f3{8} d7-d6{10}
4. d2-d4{10} e5-e4{6}
5. Nf3-g5{10} Nb8-c6{20}
6. d4-d5{12} Nc6-e5{32}
7. Ng5-e4{12} Nf6-d7{6}
8. b2-b3{10} Nd7-b6{22}
9. Bc1-e3{12} Bc8-g4{26}
10. Be3-d4{12} Nb6-d7{28}
11. f2-f3{10} Bg4-f5{10}
12. Ne4-g3{12} Qd8-h4{36}
13. Nc3-b5{20} Ke8-d8{12}
14. e2-e4{12} Bf5-g6{8}
15. Nb5-a7{12} Qh4-f4{22}
16. Bf1-e2{12} Bf8-e7{12}
17. Ke1-g1{8} Rh8-e8{14}
18. a2-a3{10} h7-h5{36}
19. Ng3-h1{10} Nd7-c5{22}
20. g2-g3{12} Qf4-g5{32}
21. Kg1-g2{26} Ra8-a7{8}
22. h2-h4{12} Qg5-h6{8}
23. b3-b4{10} Ne5-d7{6}
24. Rf1-e1{12} Ra7-a6{10}
25. b4-c5{12} d6-c5{6}
26. Bd4-b2{16} Ra6-d6{28}
27. Ra1-b1{12} Nd7-b6{6}
28. Bb2-e5{12} Rd6-d7{8}
29. Be5-f4{12} Qh6-h8{12}
30. a3-a4{10} f7-f6{22}
31. a4-a5{12} Be7-d6{40}
32. Bf4-d6{12} Rd7-d6{6}
33. a5-b6{12} c7-b6{6}
34. Qd1-a4{14} Kd8-c8{14}
35. Qa4-a3{18} Qh8-f8{8}
36. Nh1-f2{14} Bg6-f7{8}
37. Rb1-b5{12} Qf8-e7{18}
38. Qa3-a8{18} Kc8-c7{0}
39. Qa8-a7{16} Qe7-e5{18}
40. Re1-b1{12} Kc7-c8{34}
41. Nf2-d3{12} Qe5-e7{8}
42. Rb5-c5{12} Qe7-c7{10}
43. Rc5-c7{12} Kc8-c7{2}
44. c4-c5{8} Rd6-e6{52}
45. d5-d6{10} Re6-d6{30}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jester : (White)
beginner: (Black)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...720&game=Chess

Please advice what is missing in GetClub game. What were the mistakes
made by Beginner Level.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Old December 1st 08, 05:53 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
ave ave is offline
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First recorded activity by ChessBanter: May 2008
Posts: 53
Default How to improve GetClub?

Nowadays a lot of people play at GetClub arround 20-30 games of Chess
are played daily. So to look at recorded games takes a lot of time.

A few things were corrected at GetClub today. Still GetClub is not
winning. But now there is nothing that can be easily improved. So how
to improve GetClub further.


Well, if you're really serious about improving it...

I would actually suggest to do a "GetClub2" and leave GetClub itself
as it is. With the new version being a complete rewrite. When doing the
rewrite, review the history of research put into the authoring of chess
programs.
Then put into practice some of the many methods, ideas, structures that
people have concluded perform the best.

I do not believe that writing the code in java should result in such a huge
difference in performance, I would say the difference in move decisions was
mostly due to poor implementation rather than the language you used. Whilst
there is some overhead in using Java for your game, the overhead is not the
order of magnitude demonstrated by you application. This is mostly due to
the techniques you employed.

You're also finding it hard to improve GetClub itself without causing other
unforeseen issues elsewhere. This, again, is due to the structure of the
program rather than any inherent issue with the language or what you are
trying to accomplish.

I would take what you've learned during development, I would research into
'proper' chess programming techniques and produce a new, improved and
rewritten version of the application.

A second iteration, if you will.

ave





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Old December 1st 08, 07:24 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Aug 2006
Posts: 505
Default How to improve GetClub?


A few things were corrected at GetClub today. Still GetClub is not
winning.


If, despite the many improvements of factors of three and so on,
GitClub is still not winning, what ratings would you now assign?

For instance,

Baby (carrot) level 1000
Beginner 1100
Easy 1300
Normal 1400
Master 1500

might be a place to start your estimates? I base this on nothing, of
course, in imitation of your own method.
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Old December 1st 08, 08:16 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
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First recorded activity by ChessBanter: May 2006
Posts: 9,302
Default How to improve GetClub?

On Dec 1, 2:24*pm, " wrote:

If, despite the many improvements of factors of three and so on,
GitClub is still not winning, what ratings would you now assign?

For instance,

Baby (carrot) level * 1000
Beginner *1100
Easy *1300
Normal 1400
Master 1500

might be a place to start your estimates? *I base this on nothing, of
course, in imitation of your own method.



Also based on nothing, I think it is obvious
that your numbers -- like Sanny's -- are
bunched too closely together. In addition,
there is an unexplained gap between the
Beginner level and Easy level, of twice your
"normal" 100-point gap.

Here are some better estimates, based
on somewhat better nothingness than what
you did not use in your non-calculations:

Baby 1000

Beginner 1200

Easy 1400

Normal 1600

Master 1750

Advance 1900


Naturally, these estimates cannot take
into account the fact that humans have
virtually limitless time to decide upon
their moves, while the GetClub engine
is strictly limited to a ridiculous amount
of time-- a big fat advantage for humans,
except those who choose not to take
advantage of it.

Seriously though, there have been a
few test games played under random
conditions between a program of
almost-known strength and GC. From
what I saw they were well-matched, and
this indicates that lowball estimates of
1000-to-1500 are way off base.

As they say in the investment world:
don't confuse the stock with the company.
A great company might be a poor stock,
e.g., if it hands its profits to the CEO in the
form of stock options instead of giving its
profits to all shareholders.
Ergo, don't confuse the GetClub chess
engine's performance with Sanny's
record here in rgc. On the higher levels,
GC can land tactical death-blows, but it is
not consistent and it still is beaten like a
carrot by all those other chess engines
the hateful critics are surreptitiously
using (to protect their fragile egos).


-- help bot




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Old December 1st 08, 11:14 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,977
Default How to improve GetClub?

On Nov 30, 11:40 pm, Sanny wrote:

how to improve GetClub further.


Replace the present owner by a new one.

Wlod


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Old December 1st 08, 11:16 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,977
Default How to improve GetClub?

On Nov 30, 11:40 pm, Sanny wrote:

how to improve GetClub further.


The real challenge is how to make it worse?!

I am sure that you will manage anyway.

Wlod
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Old December 2nd 08, 05:48 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.politics
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First recorded activity by ChessBanter: May 2006
Posts: 5,365
Default Game with Advance Level !!!

Help Bot Played against the top level Advance which thinks 1 hour per
move.

Advance level was a pawn up at 12th move.

At 21st move Help Bot trapped the Rook and Bishop. And Advance traded
Bishop and pawn for a Rook.

Now at 23rd move the game was equal.

On 25th move Knight took Bishop and then on 27th move Help Bot took
the Pawn.

Now on 30th move Help Bot was a pawn up.

As Help Bot had Rook with 5 pawns while Advance had Knight with 6
pawns. So Help bot was 1 pawn ahead.

On 42 move Help Bot took one more pawn.

Now Help Bot can easily get the Queen and win.

Help Bot Exchanged Rook with Knight for fast ending. But GetClub
refused to take Rook as it was seeing the Queen promotion.

On 47th Move Advance Level Resigned the game. As it saw Maste in 10.


Game Played between help bot and advance at GetClub.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
advance: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...747&game=Chess
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

White -- Black
(advance) -- (help bot)

1. e2-e4{4} c7-c5{4}
2. Ng1-f3{0} g7-g6{4}
3. d2-d4{0} c5-d4{2}
4. Nf3-d4{0} Bf8-g7{4}
5. Bc1-e3{2466} Ng8-f6{88}
6. Nb1-c3{9032} d7-d6{66}
7. Bf1-b5{1528} Bc8-d7{1186}
8. Ke1-g1{2586} Ke8-g8{56}
9. Qd1-f3{3480} Nf6-g4{106}
10. Bb5-d7{2620} Ng4-e3{628}
11. Nd4-e6{2774} f7-e6{1356}
12. Bd7-e6{2472} Kg8-h8{22}
13. Qf3-e3{1310} Nb8-a6{210}
14. Nc3-d1{2562} Na6-c5{148}
15. Be6-c4{1474} Ra8-c8{7832}
16. Ra1-c1{2306} Qd8-a5{2918}
17. h2-h3{1682} Qa5-b4{134}
18. Bc4-d5{5314} e7-e6{182}
19. a2-a3{1608} Qb4-d4{432}
20. Qe3-d4{1724} Bg7-d4{46}
21. c2-c3{2482} Nc5-d3{144}
22. c3-d4{2972} Rc8-c1{112}
23. Bd5-e6{1426} Nd3-f4{46}
24. d4-d5{2176} Nf4-e6{58}
25. d5-e6{2526} Rf8-e8{12}
26. Nd1-e3{3188} Rc1-f1{64}
27. Kg1-f1{3252} Re8-e6{14}
28. f2-f3{1346} Re6-e8{66}
29. b2-b3{2894} b7-b5{164}
30. Kf1-e2{2254} Re8-c8{64}
31. Ke2-d3{1666} Kh8-g7{46}
32. f3-f4{2166} Rc8-c1{562}
33. f4-f5{2462} Kg7-f6{272}
34. f5-g6{2068} h7-g6{92}
35. Kd3-d4{2140} Kf6-e6{29844}
36. Ne3-d5{0} g6-g5{140}
37. b3-b4{6500} Rc1-d1{29172}
38. Kd4-e3{2164} Ke6-e5{490}
39. Nd5-c3{3784} Rd1-e1{350}
40. Ke3-d3{4534} a7-a6{96}
41. Nc3-d5{5676} Re1-a1{864}
42. a3-a4{2428} b5-a4{128}
43. Nd5-e3{1668} Ra1-a3{78}
44. Kd3-d2{3590} Ra3-e3{42}
45. Kd2-c1{2590} Re3-e2{1156}
46. b4-b5{8466} a4-a3{20}
47. b5-b6{186}
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
help bot: (Black)
advance: (White)
Game Played at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
View Recorded Game: http://www.getclub.com/playgame.php?...747&game=Chess

So it was a tough fight between Help Bot and Advance Level.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html
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Old December 2nd 08, 10:47 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default GetClub improved by 4 times today.

GC can land tactical death-blows, but it is
not consistent and it still is beaten like a
carrot by all those other chess engines
the hateful critics are surreptitiously
using (to protect their fragile egos).


Not any more. Today GetClub was improved 4 times.

So GetClub will play 4 times stronger.

I played against Jester and found it is playing much stronger now.

With the recent improvement.

Beginner will play like Easy Level

Easy will play like Normal Level

Normal will play like Master Level

and Master will play like Advance Level.

Go and play and tell me how you feel now.

Bye
Sanny

Play Chess at: http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.html


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Old December 2nd 08, 02:57 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
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First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Aug 2006
Posts: 505
Default How to improve GetClub?

On Dec 1, 1:16*pm, help bot wrote:
* *Here are some better estimates, based
on somewhat better nothingness than what
you did not use in your non-calculations:

* Baby *1000

* Beginner *1200

* Easy *1400

* Normal *1600

* Master *1750

* Advance *1900

* Naturally, these estimates cannot take
into account the fact that humans have
virtually limitless time to decide upon
their moves, while the GetClub engine
is strictly limited to a ridiculous amount
of time-- a big fat advantage for humans,
except those who choose not to take
advantage of it.


There is a real problem with all this, put into sharp focus when I
read in another message that Advance level takes one hour PER MOVE. I
think ratings simply must be determined in the context of a reasonable
tournament time limit, imposed on both human and machine. Something
like 20 moves per hour, perhaps. Under such limitations we would see
much lower ratings for GitClub. For one thing, any level beyond
Normal would likely have a rating that approaches zero, because a game
would never, ever be finished in time.
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Old December 2nd 08, 03:00 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
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First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Aug 2006
Posts: 505
Default GetClub improved by 4 times today.



Not any more. Today GetClub was improved 4 times.


By now GitClub must be thousands of times better than it was a year or
so back, and, if this were actually true, it would slice, dice, chop,
and mince anything or anyone in the world like carrots. However, as
this is not the case, perhaps GitClub is not *quite* as good as all
that?
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