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Old March 3rd 09, 09:09 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default 6 endgame tablebases worth it?

I've read some places that these tablebases can even make strong computer
players play worse. I have the entire Nalimov endgame tablebases up to 5
and below. But was thinking of getting the DVD with 6.

The two major programs that I have that would utilize them are Rybka 3 and
Junior 10.

Any info would be greatly appreciated!


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Old March 4th 09, 07:13 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default 6 endgame tablebases worth it?

I''ve seen games between computers where one side is like a queen +
rook and some pawns ahead, and tries to give the pieces away so as to
reach a won 6-man endgame. The opposing computer didn't accept the
offers for the same reason.
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Old March 4th 09, 07:37 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default 6 endgame tablebases worth it?

Offramp schrieb:
I''ve seen games between computers where one side is like a queen +
rook and some pawns ahead, and tries to give the pieces away so as to
reach a won 6-man endgame. The opposing computer didn't accept the
offers for the same reason.


I think this is the most famous example of this, where moves 70 to 74
all tried to sacrifice a white rook which was always declined, because
due to tablebases both computers could see the forced mate resulting
from taking the rook (and entering a K+R+P vs. K+R endgame). On the
other hand the computers were not able to see the faster mate that was
surely possible with white having an extra rook.

Well, it's arguable whether this is qualifies as playing weaker due to
the tablebases, after all white did really see a forced mate in 40, but
for a human to play in this fashion would of course just be crazy.

[Event "BGN Computer Qualifier"]
[Site "Cadaques ESP"]
[Date "2001.04.25"]
[Round "4"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Deep Junior (Computer)"]
[Black "Deep Fritz (Computer)"]
[ECO "C42"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nxe5 d6 4. Nf3 Nxe4 5. d4 d5 6. Bd3 Nc6
7. O-O Be7 8. c4 Nb4 9. Be2 O-O 10. Nc3 Be6 11. Ne5 f6 12. Nf3
c5 13. Be3 Rc8 14. dxc5 Bxc5 15. Bxc5 Rxc5 16. Qb3 Nxc3
17. Qxc3 Nc6 18. b4 d4 19. Qd2 Rxc4 20. Bxc4 Bxc4 21. Rfe1 Qd5
22. a4 a6 23. Qf4 Rd8 24. h4 Qd6 25. Qxd6 Rxd6 26. Nd2 Bd3
27. Re8+ Kf7 28. Rc8 Kg6 29. Rc7 Nxb4 30. Rxb7 Nd5 31. Rc1 Nc3
32. Kh2 Ne4 33. Nb3 Nxf2 34. Rcc7 Ng4+ 35. Kg3 Ne5 36. Rxg7+
Kf5 37. Rxh7 Bc2 38. Nd2 Bxa4 39. h5 Rd8 40. Rhg7 Bc6 41. Rb1
a5 42. Nb3 Ke4 43. Nxa5 Bd5 44. h6 d3 45. Kf2 Kd4 46. h7 Rh8
47. Rb4+ Kc5 48. Rh4 Kb6 49. Nb3 Bxb3 50. Rb4+ Kc6 51. Rxb3 d2
52. Rc3+ Kd5 53. Ke2 Nc4 54. Rg8 Rxh7 55. Rd8+ Kc5 56. Rc8+
Kd5 57. R8xc4 Rh2 58. Rg4 d1=R 59. Kxd1 Rh1+ 60. Ke2 Ra1
61. Rg6 Ke4 62. Re3+ Kf5 63. Rg8 Kf4 64. Rf3+ Ke5 65. Re8+ Kd6
66. Rd3+ Kc6 67. Re6+ Kc5 68. Rxf6 Ra2+ 69. Kf3 Ra8 70. Rc6+
Kb5 71. Rc5+ Kb4 72. Rb5+ Kc4 73. Rd4+ Kc3 74. Rc5+ Kxd4
75. Rf5 Ra1 76. Kf4 Rf1+ 77. Kg5 Ra1 78. g4 Ke4 79. Rb5 Kd3
80. Kg6 Ra6+ 81. Kh5 Kc4 82. Rf5 Ra8 83. g5 Rh8+ 84. Kg4 Rg8
85. Rf6 Rd8 86. g6 Rd7 87. Rf5 Kd3 88. Rg5 Rd4+ 89. Kh5 Rd8
90. g7 Rg8 91. Kh6 Ke3 92. Kh7 Re8 93. g8=Q Rxg8 94. Kxg8 Kf4
95. Rd5 Ke4 96. Rd7 Ke3 97. Kf7 Kf4 98. Re7 Kf5 99. Re6 Kg4
100. Rf6 Kg5 101. Kg7 Kg4 102. Kg6 Kh3 103. Kf5 Kg3 104. Kg5
Kh2 105. Kf4 Kg2 106. Kg4 Kh1 107. Rf2 Kg1 108. Kg3 Kh1
109. Rf1# 1-0
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Old March 4th 09, 08:04 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default 6 endgame tablebases worth it?

Marlon wrote:
I've read some places that these tablebases can even make strong computer
players play worse. I have the entire Nalimov endgame tablebases up to 5
and below. But was thinking of getting the DVD with 6.


They may avoid certain lines with a forced mate but which no engine or
human without access to tablebases could possibly find.

The two major programs that I have that would utilize them are Rybka 3 and
Junior 10.

Any info would be greatly appreciated!


The 6 men tablebases are probably worth it if you intend to use Freezer
to study positions that are beyond the limits of normal chess engines to
analyse.

I reckon the faster more compact compressed Shredderbases are about the
most interesting of the current commercial offerings for playing against
engines (ISTR free with Shredder 10 onwards). Unfortunately I don't
think any of the other CB engines can use them.

Regards,
Martin Brown
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Old March 4th 09, 11:45 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default 6 endgame tablebases worth it?

Top marks, Björn! That is indeed EXACTLY the game I was thinking of!
Mentioning that BGN Qualifier in Cadaques reminds me of one of the
best games I have ever seen between computers:
[Event "BGN Computer Qualifier"]
[Site "Cadaques"]
[Date "2001.04.25"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Fritz, Deep"]
[Black "Junior, Deep"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B67"]
[PlyCount "138"]
[EventDate "2001.04.24"]
[EventType "match"]
[EventRounds "24"]
[EventCountry "ESP"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Bg5 e6 7. Qd2
a6 8.
O-O-O Bd7 9. f4 b5 10. Bxf6 gxf6 11. Kb1 Qb6 12. Nxc6 Bxc6 13. Qe1 Be7
14. Bd3
h5 15. f5 Qc5 16. Rf1 b4 17. Ne2 e5 18. Nc1 a5 19. Nb3 Qb6 20. Bc4 a4
21. Nc1
Rg8 22. Qe2 Rg4 23. Bd5 Rc8 24. Rfe1 Bf8 25. h3 Rg3 26. Rd3 h4 27.
Rxg3 hxg3
28. Bxc6+ Qxc6 {Diagram #} 29. Qd3 Bh6 30. Ne2 Ke7 31. Rd1 Qc5 32.
Nxg3 a3 33.
Ne2 axb2 34. Kxb2 Rc7 35. h4 Rc8 36. g4 Qc6 37. Rg1 Be3 38. Rg2 Qa4
39. Kb1 Ra8
40. Qb3 Qa7 41. Rg3 Bf2 42. Rh3 Qc7 43. Rh2 Ra3 44. Qd5 Ra5 45. Qd2
Qa7 46.
Qxb4 Rxa2 47. Rxf2 Ra4 48. Qb3 Ra1+ 49. Kb2 Rh1 50. Qg3 Qa1+ 51. Kb3
Rb1+ 52.
Kc4 d5+ 53. exd5 Qa6+ 54. Kc3 Qa5+ 55. Kd3 Rd1+ 56. Ke4 Qxd5+ 57. Ke3
Qc5+ 58.
Kf3 (58. Ke4 Qxc2+ 59. Kf3 Qc6+ 60. Ke3 Qc5+ 61. Kf3 Qd5+ 62. Ke3
Rd3#) 58...
Qc6+ 59. Ke3 Qb6+ 60. Ke4 Qb7+ 61. Ke3 Qa7+ 62. Kf3 Qa8+ 63. Ke3 Qa3+
64. Ke4 (
64. c3 Qc5+ 65. Kf3 Qd5+ 66. Ke3 Rd3#) 64... Rd4+ 65. Nxd4 Qxg3 66.
Nc6+ Kd6
67. Nxe5 fxe5 68. Rd2+ Kc6 69. Rd8 Qf4+ 0-1

It was a good match
BGN Computer Qualifier 2001

123456789012345678901234
1 Junior,Deep 11111½½0½½½1½½0001½0½00½ 12.0/24
2 Fritz,Deep 00000½½1½½½0½½1110½1½11½ 12.0/24

Deep Junior got off to a flying start, but Deep Fritz managed to pull
back and I believe won the tie-break.


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Old March 4th 09, 08:00 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default 6 endgame tablebases worth it?

On 4 Mar, 07:37, Bjoern wrote:
Offramp schrieb:

I''ve seen games between computers where one side is like a queen +
rook and some pawns ahead, and tries to give the pieces away so as to
reach a won 6-man endgame. The opposing computer didn't accept the
offers for the same reason.


I think this is the most famous example of this, where moves 70 to 74
all tried to sacrifice a white rook which was always declined, because
due to tablebases both computers could see the forced mate resulting
from taking the rook (and entering a K+R+P vs. K+R endgame). On the
other hand the computers were not able to see the faster mate that was
surely possible with white having an extra rook.


This is given in Tim Krabbe's chess diary (http://www.xs4all.nl/~timkr/
chess2/diary_6.htm, entry 114), with some entertaining analysis of the
moves.
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