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Old February 22nd 10, 05:47 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Deep Fritz 12

All

I've just received an email saying that Deep Fritz 12 will ship this week.
I already have Fritz 12 and it will outplay me until my dying day so I've no
intention of upgrading.

I thought that the Deep version 'just' made use of additional processors so
that it was faster but can anyone explain whether it also adds any features?

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Old February 22nd 10, 06:25 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Deep Fritz 12

On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:47:46 -0000, "The DA"
wrote:

All

I've just received an email saying that Deep Fritz 12 will ship this week.
I already have Fritz 12 and it will outplay me until my dying day so I've no
intention of upgrading.

I thought that the Deep version 'just' made use of additional processors so
that it was faster but can anyone explain whether it also adds any features?


The book and engine are new, and the database of games is updated, but
it seems to be the same GUI as Fritz 12.
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Old February 22nd 10, 08:50 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Deep Fritz 12


"Tony M" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:47:46 -0000, "The DA"
wrote:

All

I've just received an email saying that Deep Fritz 12 will ship this week.
I already have Fritz 12 and it will outplay me until my dying day so I've
no
intention of upgrading.

I thought that the Deep version 'just' made use of additional processors
so
that it was faster but can anyone explain whether it also adds any
features?


The book and engine are new, and the database of games is updated, but
it seems to be the same GUI as Fritz 12.


Thanks, Tony. I wasn't sure because the Chessbase page at
http://www.chessbase.com/shop/product.asp?pid=488 says that the following
items are new to Deep Fritz 12:

Completely redesigned ergonomic interface
Twelve months premium membership on Playchess.com
New DEEP FRITZ engine: even stronger!
New openings book by Alex Kure
Twelve hours chess tutorial videos with international trainers and world
class players
Updated database of 1.5 million games from 1625 to 2009

But I was aware that Fritz 12 already had the 12 months free, 12 hours of
tutorials and the databas eof 1.5 m games. I think it also had the openings
book by Kure. As those weren't 'new to Deep', I wondered if the 'completely
redesigned interface' was the same as in Fritz 12 too.


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Old February 25th 10, 04:12 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Deep Fritz 12

On 2/22/10 12:50 PM, The DA wrote:

"Tony M" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Feb 2010 17:47:46 -0000, "The DA"
wrote:

All

I've just received an email saying that Deep Fritz 12 will ship this
week.
I already have Fritz 12 and it will outplay me until my dying day so
I've no
intention of upgrading.

I thought that the Deep version 'just' made use of additional
processors so
that it was faster but can anyone explain whether it also adds any
features?


The book and engine are new, and the database of games is updated, but
it seems to be the same GUI as Fritz 12.


Thanks, Tony. I wasn't sure because the Chessbase page at
http://www.chessbase.com/shop/product.asp?pid=488 says that the
following items are new to Deep Fritz 12:

Completely redesigned ergonomic interface
Twelve months premium membership on Playchess.com
New DEEP FRITZ engine: even stronger!
New openings book by Alex Kure
Twelve hours chess tutorial videos with international trainers and world
class players
Updated database of 1.5 million games from 1625 to 2009

But I was aware that Fritz 12 already had the 12 months free, 12 hours
of tutorials and the databas eof 1.5 m games. I think it also had the
openings book by Kure. As those weren't 'new to Deep', I wondered if the
'completely redesigned interface' was the same as in Fritz 12 too.



This is compared to DF 11.

From an analysis standpoint, it is likely that DF12 is stronger than
fritz 12 on the same number of processors. It is not clear how much
this will affect your use of the program. For some alot, for others,
not so much.
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Old March 8th 10, 07:08 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Deep Fritz 12

The DA wrote:
All

I've just received an email saying that Deep Fritz 12 will ship this week.
I already have Fritz 12 and it will outplay me until my dying day so I've no
intention of upgrading.

I thought that the Deep version 'just' made use of additional processors so
that it was faster but can anyone explain whether it also adds any features?


The feature is that it cost an additional $40-$50 and the only difference is
they flipped a preprocessor directive to build it. Snakes is what they are.
The future of ALL chess software is multi-CPU; so there is no point in
releasing anything else and it should be released at that price point that
that it always has been $40-$60 for the latest and greatest of your favorite
engine.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

Religion is a crutch, but that's okay... humanity is a cripple.


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Old March 8th 10, 08:08 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Posts: 10
Default Deep Fritz 12

Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
The DA wrote:
All

I've just received an email saying that Deep Fritz 12 will ship this week.
I already have Fritz 12 and it will outplay me until my dying day so I've no
intention of upgrading.

I thought that the Deep version 'just' made use of additional processors so
that it was faster but can anyone explain whether it also adds any features?


The feature is that it cost an additional $40-$50 and the only difference is
they flipped a preprocessor directive to build it. Snakes is what they are.


Every try to do a reasonable parallel chess searcher?

Flipping compiler switches aren't going to do it. There are *NO*
compilers or compiler libraries (from Intel, Microsoft, who ever) than
can automatically convert a single cpu searcher into a multi-cpu
searcher. And going beyond a few cpu's into 16, 32, etc. is even harder.

Even with the earliest parallel chess programs (like Ostrich), the
authors struggled with good ways to split the search to get reasonable
performance improvements. Later programs have better algorithms (based
on years & years of research by others) but they still aren't easy to do
and they aren't done by flipping a preprocessor directive.

People tried just simply splitting a tree into 'X' separate threads.
Fairly easy to do but very wasteful.

After years of research, people came up with various dynamic ways to
split a search based on where in the search it was, whether other
processors were still busy, etc.

It's easy to program the search so it can use a few extra cpu's, but the
trick is they have to be helpful, and not just wasted cpu effort.


So, they may be activating the advanced searching algorithms with a
preprocessor switch, but the code its activating had to be written,
tested and tuned. It's not something inherent in the compiler or some
helpful library they are linking to.

Is it worth the $40-$50 you ask... (shrug) That depends entirely on
whether you are willing to pay it. Only the consumer can say if its
worth it to them.

Me.... Not a chance.



In general though, many programs have similar situations. A plain
version and a more advanced version for a higher price. It's all the
same code base but the extra features are enabled with a #define or the
inclusion of a couple extra library files to be installed onto the
user's system.



The future of ALL chess software is multi-CPU; so there is no point in


Really? I wasn't aware most netbooks, ipods, iphones, android phones
etc. etc. were multi-cpu.


releasing anything else and it should be released at that price point that
that it always has been $40-$60 for the latest and greatest of your favorite
engine.


Why should they if people are willing to pay extra for extra cpu support?


Also, different people have different opinions of what 'Deep' means. To
some, it means using more than a single CPU core. To others, it means
using more than what a normal desktop has. To still others, it means
using some exotic hardware with dozens or even hundreds of cores.

Still, going 'deep' (in the sense of going to 2, 4 or 8 cores) is likely
only going to add 20-30 points for each doubling up into 8 or so and
then after that probably much less.



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Old March 12th 10, 07:08 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Deep Fritz 12

I think the original poster's point was that the code was written to
support multiple threads/processors/whatever and generation of the
parallel functionality was turned off by compile time switch.

On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 14:08:59 -0600, NoBodyYouKnow
wrote:

Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
The DA wrote:
All

I've just received an email saying that Deep Fritz 12 will ship this week.
I already have Fritz 12 and it will outplay me until my dying day so I've no
intention of upgrading.

I thought that the Deep version 'just' made use of additional processors so
that it was faster but can anyone explain whether it also adds any features?


The feature is that it cost an additional $40-$50 and the only difference is
they flipped a preprocessor directive to build it. Snakes is what they are.


Every try to do a reasonable parallel chess searcher?

Flipping compiler switches aren't going to do it. There are *NO*
compilers or compiler libraries (from Intel, Microsoft, who ever) than

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Old March 13th 10, 01:39 AM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Posts: 10
Default Deep Fritz 12

Mark F wrote:
I think the original poster's point was that the code was written to
support multiple threads/processors/whatever and generation of the
parallel functionality was turned off by compile time switch.


Right.

I talked about both kinds.

I pointed out that the parallel code still had to be written and tested
and tuned. And that many programs have both a basic and an advanced
version, often controlled by a compile time switch or a different serial
key or the addition of an extra library file, etc. Fritz is hardly
unique in this respect.

The reason I mentioned compiler switches & special libraries is because
some people hear about the latest and greatest compilers and special
parallel libraries etc. and actually believe the hype that they can
magically make any program parallel aware and faster with little effort
by the programmer.

And I pointed out that whether it was worth it was dependent on whether
you'd actually be willing to buy it.



On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 14:08:59 -0600, NoBodyYouKnow
wrote:

Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
The DA wrote:
All

I've just received an email saying that Deep Fritz 12 will ship this week.
I already have Fritz 12 and it will outplay me until my dying day so I've no
intention of upgrading.

I thought that the Deep version 'just' made use of additional processors so
that it was faster but can anyone explain whether it also adds any features?

The feature is that it cost an additional $40-$50 and the only difference is
they flipped a preprocessor directive to build it. Snakes is what they are.

Every try to do a reasonable parallel chess searcher?

Flipping compiler switches aren't going to do it. There are *NO*
compilers or compiler libraries (from Intel, Microsoft, who ever) than

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Old March 26th 10, 03:48 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Mar 2008
Posts: 165
Default Deep Fritz 12

NoBodyYouKnow wrote:
Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
The DA wrote:
All

I've just received an email saying that Deep Fritz 12 will ship this week.
I already have Fritz 12 and it will outplay me until my dying day so I've no
intention of upgrading.

I thought that the Deep version 'just' made use of additional processors so
that it was faster but can anyone explain whether it also adds any features?


The feature is that it cost an additional $40-$50 and the only difference is
they flipped a preprocessor directive to build it. Snakes is what they are.


Every try to do a reasonable parallel chess searcher?


No, but it has been done and there will never be a release that doesn't
support multiple processors. They are simply selling crippled releases built
to utilize single processors only.


Flipping compiler switches aren't going to do it. There are *NO*
compilers or compiler libraries (from Intel, Microsoft, who ever) than
can automatically convert a single cpu searcher into a multi-cpu
searcher. And going beyond a few cpu's into 16, 32, etc. is even harder.


I didn't say flipping a compiler switch, I said flipping a preprocessor
directive. They built the code for multiple CPUs and they either turn on
#define for multiple CPUs or potentially they #define for single CPUs. My
point is the future for ALL desktop computing is multiple CPU/Cores and there
is no point in ripping off the customer over semantics; especially since the
problem is largely solved and future software versions are not reinventing the
wheel every time. They ARE capitalizing on the word "Deep" and selling it for
a premium and the time is past where they should be getting away with this.


Even with the earliest parallel chess programs (like Ostrich), the
authors struggled with good ways to split the search to get reasonable
performance improvements. Later programs have better algorithms (based
on years & years of research by others) but they still aren't easy to do
and they aren't done by flipping a preprocessor directive.


You know as well as I do that they can change which code compiles via
preprocessor directives. The code is the hard part, the preprocessor
directive is the easy part. Fortunately, as you yourself have said, the code
has largely been written and future releases are all based on it. The
investment has been made and recouped. They are ripping people off selling
the crippled version at this point when 95% of all desktop or laptop hardware
sold over the last three years or more is multi-core. Not to mention that
Crafy has had the ability to do this and it is free and the source code is
available. I think people should simply quit buying their products [as if the
old programs are not good enough anyway], until they get their marketers out
of their ass and start selling the multi-core capable software for the regular
price. All software that I work on has incorporated multiple CPU capability
WITHOUT charging additional for it [I am a consultant and I have worked on
many products for many companies].

So, they may be activating the advanced searching algorithms with a
preprocessor switch, but the code its activating had to be written,
tested and tuned. It's not something inherent in the compiler or some
helpful library they are linking to.


You should know that I know this or I wouldn't have mentioned a preprocessor
directive in the first place, right?


Is it worth the $40-$50 you ask... (shrug) That depends entirely on
whether you are willing to pay it. Only the consumer can say if its
worth it to them.

Me.... Not a chance.


Me either. I will stick with Deep Shredder 11 until hell freezes over if that
is how long it takes them to come to their senses.

Really? I wasn't aware most netbooks, ipods, iphones, android phones
etc. etc. were multi-cpu.


I am referring to desktop software as should be clear and that is the pricing
I am referring to as well. I addressed the subject above.

Why should they if people are willing to pay extra for extra cpu support?


I just addressed this as well; they should hold out in my opinion.

--
Thomas T. Veldhouse

Religion is a crutch, but that's okay... humanity is a cripple.
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Old March 28th 10, 01:49 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Posts: 5
Default Deep Fritz 12

"Thomas T. Veldhouse" writes:

You know as well as I do that they can change which code compiles via
preprocessor directives. The code is the hard part, the preprocessor
directive is the easy part. Fortunately, as you yourself have said, the code
has largely been written and future releases are all based on it. The
investment has been made and recouped.


The inverstment has been made, and why should people that don't need
it pay for it?


They are ripping people off selling the crippled version at this
point when 95% of all desktop or laptop hardware sold over the last
three years or more is multi-core.


Just because you can utililize multiple cores doesn't mean you want
to. Using just one core might be enough chess power you need.

It's only fair that the peple who profit from this extra investment
pay for it.

mfg, simon .... l
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