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Old December 28th 10, 01:30 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Please analyze the game with GetClub.

On Dec 28, 6:30*am, Sanny wrote:

* All else being equal, you should not allow a wayward knight to
get trapped such that its only retreat allows the fatal breakup of
the pawn cover in front of the king, as needlessly happened here.


The Knight was trapped after 15 moves or 30 ply. So its quite hard to
see that.



Actually, it was easy for me (a mere human) to see that the knight
would have no safe retreat after the silly move Ng5, except of course
the time losing, self pinning, ignominious retreat, knight back to f3.


* At one point in the game I noticed that Easy level seemed to
'see' that white's a-pawn was under attack and defended it by
the advance p-c4, so it could calculate an opponent's threat and
a reply that saved material, let's say two plies deep.


One good praise.



Seeing two plies deep is praise? Then please commend me for
doing this in my sleep, for I have dreams in which I lose to the
ghost
of Bobby Fischer because he sets up combinations seven moves
(that is fourteen plies) deep and I 'somehow' miss them.


OK, but it
also did things in this game that needlessly hung the queen for a
rook,


That was a forced combination. Else how to save the King?



Go back a move or so and defend the back rank with a rook.
Yes, once you have blundered and allowed a fork of the king and
queen, it is best to save the king. Sigh. Do you have any idea
of how to play chess?


so let's say three plies were too much in the middlegame.
In that case, I would suggest giving up on the Java applet idea for
it just 'doesn't get the bull off the ice' (as Rybka likes to say).


Rybka is in Top 3, While GetClub is not even in Top 100.



If three plies are too deep for a computer, there is something
seriously wrong. Maybe it's partly the java applet? No matter
how bad your engine is, it should be able to get much deeper
than this.


congratulations on
Easy level surviving for thirty-nine moves before being summarily
checkmated by a human taking perhaps one tenth as much time
to think as the computer.


He plays very tough games. Earlier he used to win in just 19-20 moves.

Even yesterday, He beat Easy level in 26 moves. This time he was
taking black, So GetClub avoid the Mate quite longer.



Having black does seem to slow down the winning process a
bit, but this was but a single game so don't imagine you are
doing real science when making sweeping conclusions.


* BTW, your website is so buggy that I could not even get past
move one. *Once again, congratulations-- this puts in in a class
all by yourself.


Can you tell me the spot where you get the problem.



There are several spots actually, but the real clincher is when
I work my way to actually playing a move on the board and it
goes berserk (every time). If this were the only problem we
might work out some solution here but the site itself is full to
the brim with bugs. Ever consider testing your site with one of
those free site testers? Calling a professional exterminator?
An army of exterminators? Make sure they are battle hardened
and ready for action.


Step 1. Signup
Are you able to Signup properly
Help: Visit:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.htmlto Signup

Step 2: Login
Are you able to login properly.
Visit:http://www.GetClub.com/Chess.htmlfor login

Step 3: Click on "Play Chess" Button/ Image or Human Opponents.
Does the Applet loads correctly?
[Check if popup blocker blocking the Game to load.]

Step 4: Choose Opponents and Black/ White Pieces

Step 5: Make your First Move



I would say this is the precise point at which my computer
'explodes.' But just getting there is a pain because your site
is so all-around awful. Tell me-- did Phil Innes help you build it?
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Old January 1st 11, 01:14 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Please analyze the game with GetClub.

so let's say three plies were too much in the middlegame.
In that case, I would suggest giving up on the Java applet idea for
it just 'doesn't get the bull off the ice' (as Rybka likes to say).


Rybka is in Top 3, While GetClub is not even in Top 100.


* If three plies are too deep for a computer, there is something
seriously wrong. *Maybe it's partly the java applet? *No matter
how bad your engine is, it should be able to get much deeper
than this.


The problem is not with the java language or applet technology in
general. The problem is that getclub is a Shannon type B program with
no alpha-beta pruning and a broken quiescence search. That algorithm
will never play good chess, even it if was written in optimized
assembler, run on a supercomputer cluster, and was allowed to think
for 24 hours per move.

It is possible to write a reasonably strong chess engine in java, see
for example:

http://web.comhem.se/petero2home/javachess/index.html

/Peter
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Old January 1st 11, 10:15 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Please analyze the game with GetClub.

On Jan 1, 3:14*am, Peter Österlund wrote:

The problem is not with the java language or applet technology in
general. The problem is that getclub is a Shannon type B program with
no alpha-beta pruning and a broken quiescence search. That algorithm
will never play good chess, even it if was written in optimized
assembler, run on a supercomputer cluster, and was allowed to think
for 24 hours per move.


I've studied several books on computer programming and even wrote a
drag and drop program that generates legal chess moves in C#. I think
I know what alpha-beta pruning is, and I've read this on quiescence
search: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiescence_search. Given that
background, can you explain in a few words what Shannon type B program
is?

RL
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Old January 1st 11, 10:34 AM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Please analyze the game with GetClub.

On Jan 1, 11:15*am, raylopez99 wrote:
On Jan 1, 3:14*am, Peter Österlund wrote:

The problem is not with the java language or applet technology in
general. The problem is that getclub is a Shannon type B program with
no alpha-beta pruning and a broken quiescence search. That algorithm
will never play good chess, even it if was written in optimized
assembler, run on a supercomputer cluster, and was allowed to think
for 24 hours per move.


I've studied several books on computer programming and even wrote a
drag and drop program that generates legal chess moves in C#. I think
I know what alpha-beta pruning is, and I've read this on quiescence
search: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiescence_search. Given that
background, can you explain in a few words what Shannon type B program
is?


The main idea is to somehow decide that some moves in a position are
uninteresting and therefore not search them at all. The problem is
that nobody has succeeded in deciding which moves are uninteresting
and therefore type B programs tend to have huge tactical blind spots
that no amount on thinking time can compensate for.

If you want a longer explanation, try this link:

http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/Type+B+Strategy

A quote:

With the advent of brute-force alpha-beta, and programs like Tech,
Kaissa and Chess 4.5 in the early 70s, the era of the former
dominating Type B programs drew to a close.

/Peter
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Old January 1st 11, 07:58 PM posted to rec.games.chess.analysis,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Please analyze the game with GetClub.

On Jan 1, 12:34*pm, Peter Österlund wrote:


If you want a longer explanation, try this link:

* *http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/Type+B+Strategy

A quote:

* * With the advent of brute-force alpha-beta, and programs like Tech,
* * Kaissa and Chess 4.5 in the early 70s, the era of the former
* * dominating Type B programs drew to a close.

/Peter


Thanks...I also bookmarked the Wiki site, very nice.

I think the concepts of understanding the chess tree are pretty much
understood now, looking through the Wiki. But the real AI is in the
'evaluation function'--how to score lines that are equal in material,
but one line has open files for rooks, rooks behind pawns, knight on
central squares, unbroken pawn chains etc.

RL



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Old January 2nd 11, 02:49 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc,rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Please analyze the game with GetClub.

* Peter Österlund (2011-01-01) schrieb:

The problem is not with the java language or applet technology in
general. The problem is that getclub is a Shannon type B program with
no alpha-beta pruning and a broken quiescence search.


How do you know that? Have you analyzed Getclubs code?

mfg, simon .... l
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Old January 2nd 11, 05:59 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Please analyze the game with GetClub.

On Jan 2, 3:49*am, Simon Krahnke wrote:
* Peter sterlund (2011-01-01) schrieb:

The problem is not with the java language or applet technology in
general. The problem is that getclub is a Shannon type B program with
no alpha-beta pruning and a broken quiescence search.


How do you know that? Have you analyzed Getclubs code?

mfg, * * * * * * * * * *simon .... l


Yes, I disassembled the java bytecode a few years ago. Given that
getclub is still making these huge tactical mistakes, I guess that it
is
still using basically the same algorithm.

/Peter
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Old January 2nd 11, 06:45 PM posted to rec.games.chess.computer
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Default Please analyze the game with GetClub.

* Peter Österlund (18:59) schrieb:

Yes, I disassembled the java bytecode a few years ago. Given that
getclub is still making these huge tactical mistakes, I guess that it
is still using basically the same algorithm.


Aha. I tried doing that a few years back, but I never got to the actual
search code. I found it just amazing how much useless code and strange
data structures (everything is a string) I discovered along the way.

mfg, simon .... l
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