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Old February 11th 16, 04:29 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
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Default You make the call

Seems like several folks here are too clever to figure this out.

Here is the scenario, you are the arbiter and everyone wants to go home. The last game has this position with black to move -- both sides have plenty of time on their clocks but the lights are about to go out -- so how do you decide this game from this position?

White: Kf2, Nf1, pawn, h2
Black: Kh1 Nf3

Phil Innes

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Old February 14th 16, 08:44 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
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Default You make the call

On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 11:29:37 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Seems like several folks here are too clever to figure this out.

Here is the scenario, you are the arbiter and everyone wants to go home. The last game has this position with black to move -- both sides have plenty of time on their clocks but the lights are about to go out -- so how do you decide this game from this position?

White: Kf2, Nf1, pawn, h2
Black: Kh1 Nf3

Phil Innes


Common! can no one figure this out? Use a computer if you need, but obviously the first two moves by black are going to be with the Knight, and how will black stop the h pawn from queening?

SO... if you thought 1. Kt x h2 was a draw then you are a dunce, since it loses in the next move, so as arbiter you can't say that. Therefore if the Knight on f3 moves away, the the h pawn is advanced you should be able to work out in your head if that pawn can queen without being captured or forked by a check by the black knight.

Use a computer to verify this if you want.

Therefore the rule of automatic draw of K & Kt versus K & Kt is wrong, and in the position I gave, with Black to move, Black loses in all variations, right?

Phil Innes
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Old February 15th 16, 06:41 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
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Default You make the call

On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 12:44:51 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 11:29:37 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Seems like several folks here are too clever to figure this out.

Here is the scenario, you are the arbiter and everyone wants to go home.. The last game has this position with black to move -- both sides have plenty of time on their clocks but the lights are about to go out -- so how do you decide this game from this position?

White: Kf2, Nf1, pawn, h2
Black: Kh1 Nf3

Phil Innes


Common! can no one figure this out? Use a computer if you need, but obviously the first two moves by black are going to be with the Knight, and how will black stop the h pawn from queening?

SO... if you thought 1. Kt x h2 was a draw then you are a dunce, since it loses in the next move, so as arbiter you can't say that. Therefore if the Knight on f3 moves away, the the h pawn is advanced you should be able to work out in your head if that pawn can queen without being captured or forked by a check by the black knight.

Use a computer to verify this if you want.

Therefore the rule of automatic draw of K & Kt versus K & Kt is wrong, and in the position I gave, with Black to move, Black loses in all variations, right?

Phil Innes


I thought the rule was automatic draw unless one side can demonstrate a forced win. But I don't have the rule book handy.
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Old February 15th 16, 03:07 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
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Default You make the call

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 1:41:33 AM UTC-5, MikeMurray wrote:
On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 12:44:51 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 11:29:37 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Seems like several folks here are too clever to figure this out.

Here is the scenario, you are the arbiter and everyone wants to go home. The last game has this position with black to move -- both sides have plenty of time on their clocks but the lights are about to go out -- so how do you decide this game from this position?

White: Kf2, Nf1, pawn, h2
Black: Kh1 Nf3

Phil Innes


Common! can no one figure this out? Use a computer if you need, but obviously the first two moves by black are going to be with the Knight, and how will black stop the h pawn from queening?

SO... if you thought 1. Kt x h2 was a draw then you are a dunce, since it loses in the next move, so as arbiter you can't say that. Therefore if the Knight on f3 moves away, the the h pawn is advanced you should be able to work out in your head if that pawn can queen without being captured or forked by a check by the black knight.

Use a computer to verify this if you want.

Therefore the rule of automatic draw of K & Kt versus K & Kt is wrong, and in the position I gave, with Black to move, Black loses in all variations, right?

Phil Innes


I thought the rule was automatic draw unless one side can demonstrate a forced win. But I don't have the rule book handy.


It would be a long proof from the above position, and white could play h3 or h4 at first move - there are about 7x4 white king moves, 4 or 5 pawn moves, and maybe 2 dozen white knight moves. Basically when the white king is chasing the black knight from in front of the pawn or away from guarding the square in front of the pawn, the white knight has to hold the pawn so the black king can't take it.

I don't have a chess computer to check it.

Anyway, this specific position challenges K&Kt against K&Kt being an automatic draw -- and if black doesn't accept the pawn on the first move [so losing] then the runaway h pawn Queens, doesn't it?

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Old February 15th 16, 06:14 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
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Default You make the call

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 7:07:03 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 1:41:33 AM UTC-5, MikeMurray wrote:
On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 12:44:51 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 11:29:37 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Seems like several folks here are too clever to figure this out.

Here is the scenario, you are the arbiter and everyone wants to go home. The last game has this position with black to move -- both sides have plenty of time on their clocks but the lights are about to go out -- so how do you decide this game from this position?

White: Kf2, Nf1, pawn, h2
Black: Kh1 Nf3

Phil Innes

Common! can no one figure this out? Use a computer if you need, but obviously the first two moves by black are going to be with the Knight, and how will black stop the h pawn from queening?

SO... if you thought 1. Kt x h2 was a draw then you are a dunce, since it loses in the next move, so as arbiter you can't say that. Therefore if the Knight on f3 moves away, the the h pawn is advanced you should be able to work out in your head if that pawn can queen without being captured or forked by a check by the black knight.

Use a computer to verify this if you want.

Therefore the rule of automatic draw of K & Kt versus K & Kt is wrong, and in the position I gave, with Black to move, Black loses in all variations, right?

Phil Innes


I thought the rule was automatic draw unless one side can demonstrate a forced win. But I don't have the rule book handy.


It would be a long proof from the above position, and white could play h3 or h4 at first move - there are about 7x4 white king moves, 4 or 5 pawn moves, and maybe 2 dozen white knight moves. Basically when the white king is chasing the black knight from in front of the pawn or away from guarding the square in front of the pawn, the white knight has to hold the pawn so the black king can't take it.

I don't have a chess computer to check it.

Anyway, this specific position challenges K&Kt against K&Kt being an automatic draw -- and if black doesn't accept the pawn on the first move [so losing] then the runaway h pawn Queens, doesn't it?


Komodo 9.3 at way past 40 ply says draw after 1 ... Nh4. However, this doesn't relate to your question, since as long as that pawns lives, there's no talk of automatic draw.

FIDE 9.6 The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves.This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing this position was legal.

So, the position is not an automatic draw. You'd have to apply the 50 move rule to get the draw.


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Old February 15th 16, 07:23 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
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Default You make the call

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 1:14:28 PM UTC-5, MikeMurray wrote:
On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 7:07:03 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 1:41:33 AM UTC-5, MikeMurray wrote:
On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 12:44:51 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 11:29:37 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Seems like several folks here are too clever to figure this out.

Here is the scenario, you are the arbiter and everyone wants to go home. The last game has this position with black to move -- both sides have plenty of time on their clocks but the lights are about to go out -- so how do you decide this game from this position?

White: Kf2, Nf1, pawn, h2
Black: Kh1 Nf3

Phil Innes

Common! can no one figure this out? Use a computer if you need, but obviously the first two moves by black are going to be with the Knight, and how will black stop the h pawn from queening?

SO... if you thought 1. Kt x h2 was a draw then you are a dunce, since it loses in the next move, so as arbiter you can't say that. Therefore if the Knight on f3 moves away, the the h pawn is advanced you should be able to work out in your head if that pawn can queen without being captured or forked by a check by the black knight.

Use a computer to verify this if you want.

Therefore the rule of automatic draw of K & Kt versus K & Kt is wrong, and in the position I gave, with Black to move, Black loses in all variations, right?

Phil Innes

I thought the rule was automatic draw unless one side can demonstrate a forced win. But I don't have the rule book handy.


It would be a long proof from the above position, and white could play h3 or h4 at first move - there are about 7x4 white king moves, 4 or 5 pawn moves, and maybe 2 dozen white knight moves. Basically when the white king is chasing the black knight from in front of the pawn or away from guarding the square in front of the pawn, the white knight has to hold the pawn so the black king can't take it.

I don't have a chess computer to check it.

Anyway, this specific position challenges K&Kt against K&Kt being an automatic draw -- and if black doesn't accept the pawn on the first move [so losing] then the runaway h pawn Queens, doesn't it?


Komodo 9.3 at way past 40 ply says draw after 1 ... Nh4. However, this doesn't relate to your question, since as long as that pawns lives, there's no talk of automatic draw.


Thanks for that Mike. In my ignorance I thought I could 'buffalo' that pawn through to h8. That just goes to show I can no longer do 40 plies in my head [or anywhere else]


FIDE 9.6 The game is drawn when a position is reached from which a checkmate cannot occur by any possible series of legal moves.This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing this position was legal.

So, the position is not an automatic draw. You'd have to apply the 50 move rule to get the draw.


But because the pawn is moving, it can't be a draw by 50 [is it now 55?] move. It has to be result of 1. ... Nh4.

Anyway, since I have asked in a GM forum with no result, only we two know the result -- if indeed Komodo has got the good goods.

Phil
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Old February 15th 16, 09:21 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
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Default You make the call

On Monday, February 15, 2016 at 11:23:20 AM UTC-8, wrote:

But because the pawn is moving, it can't be a draw by 50 [is it now 55?] move. It has to be result of 1. ... Nh4.


I think they changed everything back to 50 moves.

Bottom line: If white wants to be ornery in such positions, he could play for forty-odd moves, then push the pawn, then play..... etc., and in an event with 30 second increment, things could go on a long while. This could happen with K+B+ wrong rook pawn against king -- maybe others. I think in such cases the director has authority to step in.
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Old February 16th 16, 10:42 AM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
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Default You make the call

On 15/02/16 21:21, MikeMurray wrote:
I think they changed everything back to 50 moves.


Not quite. The old 50-move rule is resurrected, but the 2014
rules also include a new rule that after 75 moves [with no pawn moves
of captures] the game *is* drawn, whether or not a player claims it.
Thus, the game of chess is now finite!

Bottom line: If white wants to be ornery in such positions, he could
play for forty-odd moves, then push the pawn, then play..... etc.,
and in an event with 30 second increment, things could go on a long
while. This could happen with K+B+ wrong rook pawn against king --
maybe others. I think in such cases the director has authority to
step in.


What *directors* [or organisers] can do is up to them, esp if
there are time/financial constraints. But with 30s increments, there's
nothing an *arbiter* can do unless s/he feels empowered by 12.2a,b
[ensuring fair play, acting in the best interest of the competition].
12.6 prevents the arbiter from intervening except as prescribed by the
Laws. With a quickplay finish, a player with less than 2m left has the
protection of G4 and G5, and in suitable cases could claim a draw.

--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
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Old February 16th 16, 05:42 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
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Default You make the call


What *directors* [or organisers] can do is up to them, esp if
there are time/financial constraints. But with 30s increments, there's
nothing an *arbiter* can do unless s/he feels empowered by 12.2a,b
[ensuring fair play, acting in the best interest of the competition].
12.6 prevents the arbiter from intervening except as prescribed by the
Laws. With a quickplay finish, a player with less than 2m left has the
protection of G4 and G5, and in suitable cases could claim a draw.


Thanks Andy,

Still, I am still wondering if indeed Komodo is correct -- if so, I suppose the pragmatic thing to do in this position is to award a draw to Mike's/Komodo's 1. ...Nh4.

Practically I would like to see Black prove the save over 20+ perfect moves.

Given the sense of your paragraph above, I wonder if in my scenario -- arbiter must make a call at my original position, if 1 out of a 100 TDs could with any certainty say black draws?

Anyway, perhaps we have run all possibilities to ground now?

Cordially, Phil


--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.

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Old February 17th 16, 04:30 PM posted to rec.games.chess.misc
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Default You make the call

On 16/02/16 17:42, wrote:

[ White: Kf2, Nf1, Ph2; Black (to move): Kh1 Nf3 ]

Still, I am still wondering if indeed Komodo is correct -- if so, I
suppose the pragmatic thing to do in this position is to award a draw
to Mike's/Komodo's 1. ...Nh4.


These days engines ship with the 5-man tablebases. So any
decent program will confirm instantly, and without analysis, that
the position is indeed drawn, and that 1 ... Nh4 is the only move.

Practically I would like to see Black prove the save over 20+ perfect
moves.


I may be wrong, but I don't see this as a difficult ending.
There are some "only" moves [eg, 2 h3 Nf5!, but then 3 Kf3 Kg1
4 Kg4 Kg2 is an easy draw, or 2 Kg3 Nf5+! 3 Kf4 (not Kg4 Ne3+) Ng7
4 h4 Kg2! 5 Ne3 Kh3 drawn or in this line 4 Kg5 Kg2 5 Kg6 (Black
threatened Kh3) Ne6 6 Kf6 Nf4 etc], but they aren't hard to find.
Is there a difficult line that I've missed?

Given the sense of your paragraph above, I wonder if in my scenario
-- arbiter must make a call at my original position, if 1 out of a
100 TDs could with any certainty say black draws?


I don't think it was ever clear why an *arbiter* had to
make the decision. An arbiter, faced with a KNP vs KN ending,
would surely not countenance an "insufficient winning chances"
claim unless the pawn was securely blocked and Black had shown
that he knew how to keep it that way, nor a "not trying to win"
claim unless he had watched it for a number of moves. "Force
majeure" [eg, the venue closing] might require an adjudication,
but in that case an arbiter has help from any strong players
present, and very possibly from the computer.

--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
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