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Old October 22nd 04, 05:17 AM
Angelo DePalma
 
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Default DUMP Kramnik


Kramnik has evidently pulled out of the Prague agreement, which he signed
onto only reluctantly. I don't want to say "I told you so" but I did predict
the unification was a fantasy.

Now Krumnutz wants to dictate the terms of his next match. Specifically he
wants Pono, Anand, Kasparov, and Kasim to play a 4-person tournament to
determine his challenger.

None of these guys, with the possible exception of Kasimdzhanov, has any
legitimate claim to a preferred position vis-a-vis the world championship.

1. Kasparov has not played a sanctioned match in a decade; all his opps were
hand-picked. Plus he's been relatively inactive.

2. Kramnik beat Kasparov what...3 years ago? Is he the Russian Bobby
Fischer, who believes he retains his title forever? Is he better than Leko?
Also see point #1.

3. Based on the last 2 years' performance Anand is probably the best player
in the world right now. He has pretty much kept quiet about being left out
of this current cycle. He deserves a spot, but that's how it goes.

It's obvious at this point that you can count on everyone involved in this
sorry world chess scene to act as disgracefully and stupidly as possible.
Kramnik signed on to this deal, now he wants out. Too bad he had draw odds
in his match.

What I fear most from this is that Ilumzhumobobovich will simply declare the
winner of Kasim-Kaspy to be world champion, and we'll be right back where we
were 4 years ago.

What a mess.

adp


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Old October 22nd 04, 08:07 AM
Hans Jørgen Lassen
 
Posts: n/a
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"Angelo DePalma" wrote:

What a mess.


One has to agree with that very precise statement. It took some effort to
get there, but many contributed. I just want to emphasize two points:

1. Kramnik plays very fine chess, when he is in the mood. He succeeded in
rehabilitating the Berlin Defense, he beat Kasparov (I for one never did)
and those last two games (well, out of 14) against Leko were really
impressive, demonstrating both skill and a will to fight.

2. The FIDE championships are worth nothing for a number of reasons that are
too evident even to state.

Hans J


  #3   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 04, 12:19 PM
Lonnie
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 09:07:23 +0200, "Hans Jørgen Lassen" wrote:

}
}"Angelo DePalma" wrote:
}
} What a mess.
}
}One has to agree with that very precise statement. It took some effort to
}get there, but many contributed. I just want to emphasize two points:
}
}1. Kramnik plays very fine chess, when he is in the mood. He succeeded in
}rehabilitating the Berlin Defense, he beat Kasparov (I for one never did)
}and those last two games (well, out of 14) against Leko were really
}impressive, demonstrating both skill and a will to fight.

but everyhting was agreed upon and after he just BARELY one (tied) he renigs. Guys a
stiking disgrace to chess. Drawnik,DrawnikDrawnik

a coward and a lazy, unmotivated person who has his own crazy agenda.

I say lope the ******* off like we did Ponomiv or whatever the young kid's name is
}
}2. The FIDE championships are worth nothing for a number of reasons that are
}too evident even to state.
}
}Hans J
}

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Old October 22nd 04, 03:50 PM
Angelo DePalma
 
Posts: n/a
Default


My guess is that Kramnik is going where the money is, or where he believes
it will be. At this point I don't believe anyone's "professional" or
"ethical" motives because as far as I can see top chess players have none.

If a sponsor came forward guaranteeing him $2 million for playing the winner
of Kasim-Kaspy, and if FIDE promised him another big payday 2-3 years hence
in a title defense, I'm sure he'd play.

The question a

How does ACP plan to finance their ambitious hijacking of the Prague
agreement?
Is the world -- and are top chessplayers -- not tired of the current
fragmented, disjointed title system?
How many of them will play along with ACP?
Can any of the 3 current participants really lay claim to anything
resembling a true world championship title *without* reuinification?

Kramnik-Leko was a WC only in name. I believe that FIDE recognized this
latest match as a WC only for purposes of reuinification. Now that Krum-nutz
has apparently pulled out it should revoke its peculiar designation of Kram
as WC and get on with it.

adp

"Hans Jørgen Lassen" wrote in message
. ..

"Angelo DePalma" wrote:

What a mess.


One has to agree with that very precise statement. It took some effort to
get there, but many contributed. I just want to emphasize two points:

1. Kramnik plays very fine chess, when he is in the mood. He succeeded in
rehabilitating the Berlin Defense, he beat Kasparov (I for one never did)
and those last two games (well, out of 14) against Leko were really
impressive, demonstrating both skill and a will to fight.

2. The FIDE championships are worth nothing for a number of reasons that
are too evident even to state.

Hans J



  #5   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 04, 06:34 PM
Don C. Aldrich
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Uh, no. Prague was killed by Pono. You can say Kramnik is using a
weenie technicality, but remember that Prague was really fragile, and
the agreement was very specific as to what happened. When Pono
refused to play, it was dead.

One of the big gripes was that it would take too long, and kept folks
like Anand out. Now we are way past the deadlines in the agreement,
and FIDE has still not conducted their side of it.

Now I can see Kaspy saying I ain't playing in no qualifying tmt. But,
if the ACP organizes it, and Anand takes part, it is going to be very
credible. And don't forget, Kramnik has NAO money behind him...

Dondo

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 00:17:15 -0400, "Angelo DePalma"
wrote:


Kramnik has evidently pulled out of the Prague agreement, which he signed
onto only reluctantly. I don't want to say "I told you so" but I did predict
the unification was a fantasy.

Now Krumnutz wants to dictate the terms of his next match. Specifically he
wants Pono, Anand, Kasparov, and Kasim to play a 4-person tournament to
determine his challenger.

None of these guys, with the possible exception of Kasimdzhanov, has any
legitimate claim to a preferred position vis-a-vis the world championship.

1. Kasparov has not played a sanctioned match in a decade; all his opps were
hand-picked. Plus he's been relatively inactive.

2. Kramnik beat Kasparov what...3 years ago? Is he the Russian Bobby
Fischer, who believes he retains his title forever? Is he better than Leko?
Also see point #1.

3. Based on the last 2 years' performance Anand is probably the best player
in the world right now. He has pretty much kept quiet about being left out
of this current cycle. He deserves a spot, but that's how it goes.

It's obvious at this point that you can count on everyone involved in this
sorry world chess scene to act as disgracefully and stupidly as possible.
Kramnik signed on to this deal, now he wants out. Too bad he had draw odds
in his match.

What I fear most from this is that Ilumzhumobobovich will simply declare the
winner of Kasim-Kaspy to be world champion, and we'll be right back where we
were 4 years ago.

What a mess.

adp




  #6   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 04, 07:20 PM
David Kane
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Don C. Aldrich" wrote in message
...
Uh, no. Prague was killed by Pono. You can say Kramnik is using a
weenie technicality, but remember that Prague was really fragile, and
the agreement was very specific as to what happened. When Pono
refused to play, it was dead.

One of the big gripes was that it would take too long, and kept folks
like Anand out. Now we are way past the deadlines in the agreement,
and FIDE has still not conducted their side of it.

Now I can see Kaspy saying I ain't playing in no qualifying tmt. But,
if the ACP organizes it, and Anand takes part, it is going to be very
credible. And don't forget, Kramnik has NAO money behind him...


I'm no particular fan of Kramnik, and of course have
zero insight into his motives. However, he did refer
to "corporate sponsors and civilised European
countries" in his rational. Ultimately anything that
deligitimizes these dictator showcase events in
closed repressive countries (FIDE Libya etc.) is a
step in the right direction.


  #7   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 04, 07:45 PM
Hans Jørgen Lassen
 
Posts: n/a
Default

A crazy thought just entered my mind: Is it really necessary to have a world
champion? Why cant those guys (and Polgar) just play chess and give us some
good games?
Hans J


  #8   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 04, 08:47 PM
Larry Tapper
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Angelo DePalma" wrote in message ...
Kramnik-Leko was a WC only in name. I believe that FIDE recognized this
latest match as a WC only for purposes of reuinification. Now that Krum-nutz
has apparently pulled out it should revoke its peculiar designation of Kram
as WC and get on with it.


Angelo,

To see where you're coming from, it would help to know whether you
felt the same way about Kasparov-Kramnik. Was that, too, "a WC only in
name"?

For my part, I don't care for the view that the world title is the
personal property of the title-holder, to be disposed of as he sees
fit, but the series of FIDE spectacles we've been seeing lately have
been even less inspiring, if the legitimacy of the title is what you
care about. So I agree with what Hans Jørgen Lassen is saying here.

BTW, where did you learn that Kramnik is reneging on the Prague
agreement? I haven't seen this reported in TWIC.

Larry T.


adp

"Hans Jørgen Lassen" wrote in message
. ..

"Angelo DePalma" wrote:

What a mess.


One has to agree with that very precise statement. It took some effort to
get there, but many contributed. I just want to emphasize two points:

1. Kramnik plays very fine chess, when he is in the mood. He succeeded in
rehabilitating the Berlin Defense, he beat Kasparov (I for one never did)
and those last two games (well, out of 14) against Leko were really
impressive, demonstrating both skill and a will to fight.

2. The FIDE championships are worth nothing for a number of reasons that
are too evident even to state.

Hans J

  #9   Report Post  
Old October 22nd 04, 09:06 PM
Isidor Gunsberg
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Angelo DePalma" wrote in message ...
My guess is that Kramnik is going where the money is, or where he believes
it will be. At this point I don't believe anyone's "professional" or
"ethical" motives because as far as I can see top chess players have none.

If a sponsor came forward guaranteeing him $2 million for playing the winner
of Kasim-Kaspy, and if FIDE promised him another big payday 2-3 years hence
in a title defense, I'm sure he'd play.


This is probably true. It is probably also the case that Kramnik has
withstood the challenge of his most dangerous rival, Peter Leko.

Kramnik claims that he is not bound to play a Unification match
versus the winner of FIDE's Kasimzhanov--Kasparov match. On a
technical basis, he does have a point, since the Unification plan tha
Kramnik signed **Specified** that he would play the winner of a match
between Kasparov and Ponomariov. He's probably just fed up with
dealing with FIDE. Remember that the WC Title which Kasimzhanov won
was tainted by the fact that the FIDE WC KO tournament was played in
Libya.

Sure, I'd like to see him play the winner of the
Kasimzhanov--Kasparov match. But with FIDE, it is an open question as
to whether the match will actually take place.

Certainly, a 4 way candidates tournament between Kasparov, Anand,
Kasimzhanov, and Ponomariov would produce a strong challenger.

Let's face it: as long as FIDE is run the way it is, there will
always be chaos, discord, and controversy regarding the World
Championship...

Delicate negotiations might be within a hair of creating an
agreement for a meaningful unification match, and then FIDE will run
another of its lottery World Championships, sponsored by some
repressive regime, and some guy who is not even ranked in the Top 20
will get lucky and win...



The question a

How does ACP plan to finance their ambitious hijacking of the Prague
agreement?
Is the world -- and are top chessplayers -- not tired of the current
fragmented, disjointed title system?
How many of them will play along with ACP?
Can any of the 3 current participants really lay claim to anything
resembling a true world championship title *without* reuinification?

Kramnik-Leko was a WC only in name. I believe that FIDE recognized this
latest match as a WC only for purposes of reuinification. Now that Krum-nutz
has apparently pulled out it should revoke its peculiar designation of Kram
as WC and get on with it.

adp

"Hans Jørgen Lassen" wrote in message
. ..

"Angelo DePalma" wrote:

What a mess.


One has to agree with that very precise statement. It took some effort to
get there, but many contributed. I just want to emphasize two points:

1. Kramnik plays very fine chess, when he is in the mood. He succeeded in
rehabilitating the Berlin Defense, he beat Kasparov (I for one never did)
and those last two games (well, out of 14) against Leko were really
impressive, demonstrating both skill and a will to fight.

2. The FIDE championships are worth nothing for a number of reasons that
are too evident even to state.

Hans J

  #10   Report Post  
Old October 23rd 04, 01:09 AM
bia34
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Fide always had problems, even back to time of Bobby fisher, and it will
continue to have problems, it never stop to have problems, too much conflict
of interest. Should eliminate high speed, cheap knockout tournament. Chess
championship road is a long fight, not wimbledon tennis knockout. Winning
one knockout tournament definately not enough credential to claim as world
champion.

"Isidor Gunsberg" wrote in message
om...
"Angelo DePalma" wrote in message

...
My guess is that Kramnik is going where the money is, or where he

believes
it will be. At this point I don't believe anyone's "professional" or
"ethical" motives because as far as I can see top chess players have

none.

If a sponsor came forward guaranteeing him $2 million for playing the

winner
of Kasim-Kaspy, and if FIDE promised him another big payday 2-3 years

hence
in a title defense, I'm sure he'd play.


This is probably true. It is probably also the case that Kramnik has
withstood the challenge of his most dangerous rival, Peter Leko.

Kramnik claims that he is not bound to play a Unification match
versus the winner of FIDE's Kasimzhanov--Kasparov match. On a
technical basis, he does have a point, since the Unification plan tha
Kramnik signed **Specified** that he would play the winner of a match
between Kasparov and Ponomariov. He's probably just fed up with
dealing with FIDE. Remember that the WC Title which Kasimzhanov won
was tainted by the fact that the FIDE WC KO tournament was played in
Libya.

Sure, I'd like to see him play the winner of the
Kasimzhanov--Kasparov match. But with FIDE, it is an open question as
to whether the match will actually take place.

Certainly, a 4 way candidates tournament between Kasparov, Anand,
Kasimzhanov, and Ponomariov would produce a strong challenger.

Let's face it: as long as FIDE is run the way it is, there will
always be chaos, discord, and controversy regarding the World
Championship...

Delicate negotiations might be within a hair of creating an
agreement for a meaningful unification match, and then FIDE will run
another of its lottery World Championships, sponsored by some
repressive regime, and some guy who is not even ranked in the Top 20
will get lucky and win...



The question a

How does ACP plan to finance their ambitious hijacking of the Prague
agreement?
Is the world -- and are top chessplayers -- not tired of the current
fragmented, disjointed title system?
How many of them will play along with ACP?
Can any of the 3 current participants really lay claim to anything
resembling a true world championship title *without* reuinification?

Kramnik-Leko was a WC only in name. I believe that FIDE recognized this
latest match as a WC only for purposes of reuinification. Now that

Krum-nutz
has apparently pulled out it should revoke its peculiar designation of

Kram
as WC and get on with it.

adp

"Hans Jørgen Lassen" wrote in message
. ..

"Angelo DePalma" wrote:

What a mess.

One has to agree with that very precise statement. It took some effort

to
get there, but many contributed. I just want to emphasize two points:

1. Kramnik plays very fine chess, when he is in the mood. He succeeded

in
rehabilitating the Berlin Defense, he beat Kasparov (I for one never

did)
and those last two games (well, out of 14) against Leko were really
impressive, demonstrating both skill and a will to fight.

2. The FIDE championships are worth nothing for a number of reasons

that
are too evident even to state.

Hans J



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