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Old June 1st 06, 05:24 AM posted to soc.genealogy.britain,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.genealogy.medieval,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Sloan's Thesis as to the Origin of English People

Sloan's Thesis as to the Origin of English People

I am involved with the infamous Kafir peoples in Nuristan, Afghanistan
and in Chitral, Pakinstan. There are two kinds of Kafirs: Red and
Black.

I was married to one of them and we have a daughter. This is not my
current wife, but several wives back. She is not a Kafir herself but
her ancestors are believed to have been Kafirs several generations
back.

These people are basically White. They are very European in
appearance.

The belief is that they are descended from the soldiers of Alexander
the Great. However, I do not believe that. I believe that they were
there long before Alexander arrived.

Recent research indicates that there was a mutation which took hold
just as modern man was crossing the Hindu Kush going North. I have
traversed that entire area by foot so I know the place very well. My
name is a household word over there.

Looking at the data, it appears that modern Europeans were descended
from them, not the other way around. In other words, modern humans
left Africa, crossed Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, went up to
Nuristan to Chitral, crossed Broghol Pass into Central Asia and then
turned West, finally reaching England.

These people live right at the point of crossing the top of the Hindu
Kush into Central Asia, which is where the M45 Group took hold. This
later mutated to M173 and finally to M343.

Although M343 can be found throughout Europe, it are strongest in
England. Therefore, I believe that the Modern English got to Europe
first and then were pushed over to the remote island where they are
today by subsequent migrations.

That is my thesis.

Do you agree?

Can this be tested? I am in contact with two Nuristani girls living in
Toronto. They are 100% pure Kafirs of the Hindu Kush, on both mother's
and father's side.

Are women useful for testing purposes, or do you need men?

If you need men, I have one 100% pure Kalash friend in Pakistan and I
have a Nuristani friend also in Pakistan.

The Kalash (Black Kafirs) and the Nuristani (Red Kafirs) believe that
they are originally the same race, but I do not believe that they are
and I think that both should be tested.

Have tests like this on these people already been done?

What do you think about this?

Sam Sloan
http://www.samsloan.com/european.htm
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Old June 1st 06, 07:29 AM posted to soc.genealogy.britain,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.genealogy.medieval,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Sloan's Thesis as to the Origin of English People


"Can this be tested?" Sam Sloan
=============
Sam, contact DNAPrint Geonomics, 900 Cocoanut Av, Sarasota FL 34236 ph
941-366-3200

Old Haasie

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Old June 1st 06, 11:44 AM posted to soc.genealogy.britain,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.genealogy.medieval,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Sloan's Thesis as to the Origin of English People

"Sam Sloan" wrote in message
...

What do you think about this?


I think that you are as mad as a box of frogs.

But that's how it's always been.


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Old June 1st 06, 11:12 PM posted to soc.genealogy.britain,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.genealogy.medieval,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Sloan's Thesis as to the Origin of English People

Sam Sloan wrote:
Sloan's Thesis as to the Origin of English People

I am involved with the infamous Kafir peoples in Nuristan, Afghanistan
and in Chitral, Pakinstan. There are two kinds of Kafirs: Red and
Black.

I was married to one of them and we have a daughter. This is not my
current wife, but several wives back. She is not a Kafir herself but
her ancestors are believed to have been Kafirs several generations
back.

These people are basically White. They are very European in
appearance.

The belief is that they are descended from the soldiers of Alexander
the Great. However, I do not believe that. I believe that they were
there long before Alexander arrived.

Recent research indicates that there was a mutation which took hold
just as modern man was crossing the Hindu Kush going North. I have
traversed that entire area by foot so I know the place very well. My
name is a household word over there.

Looking at the data, it appears that modern Europeans were descended
from them, not the other way around. In other words, modern humans
left Africa, crossed Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, went up to
Nuristan to Chitral, crossed Broghol Pass into Central Asia and then
turned West, finally reaching England.

These people live right at the point of crossing the top of the Hindu
Kush into Central Asia, which is where the M45 Group took hold. This
later mutated to M173 and finally to M343.

Although M343 can be found throughout Europe, it are strongest in
England. Therefore, I believe that the Modern English got to Europe
first and then were pushed over to the remote island where they are
today by subsequent migrations.

That is my thesis.

Do you agree?

Can this be tested? I am in contact with two Nuristani girls living in
Toronto. They are 100% pure Kafirs of the Hindu Kush, on both mother's
and father's side.

Are women useful for testing purposes, or do you need men?

If you need men, I have one 100% pure Kalash friend in Pakistan and I
have a Nuristani friend also in Pakistan.

The Kalash (Black Kafirs) and the Nuristani (Red Kafirs) believe that
they are originally the same race, but I do not believe that they are
and I think that both should be tested.

Have tests like this on these people already been done?

What do you think about this?

Sam Sloan
http://www.samsloan.com/european.htm


https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/

They've actually researched the gene paths.

MickG
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Old June 3rd 06, 04:27 AM posted to soc.genealogy.britain,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.genealogy.medieval,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Sloan's Thesis as to the Origin of English People

At 12:04 AM 6/2/2006 -0400, Lawrence Mayka wrote:
From: Sam Sloan ]
These people are basically White. They are very European in
appearance.


Many people in the Caucasus and surrounding areas are very pale-skinned.
Indeed, that is where we get the obsolescent term 'Caucasian'.

These people live right at the point of crossing the top of
the Hindu Kush into Central Asia, which is where the M45
Group took hold. This later mutated to M173 and finally to M343.


M45 is what we now call yDNA haplogroup P. I agree with you that a region
that preserves the original haplogroup P may well be the original source of
later Q and R (and then R1, R1a, and R1b).

Although M343 can be found throughout Europe, it are
strongest in England. Therefore, I believe that the Modern
English got to Europe first and then were pushed over to the
remote island where they are today by subsequent migrations.


The predominance of R1b in western Europe is usually explained by a more
elaborate sequence of events, including a refugium (place of refuge from the
Ice Age) in Iberia (modern Spain and Portugal).

Are women useful for testing purposes, or do you need men?


In general, genetic testers have found that mitochondrial DNA (the kind that
can be tested in women) has been 'mixed around', perhaps because throughout
history most societies have encouraged the wife to relocate to the husband's
home and land. This 'mixing' makes localization of haplogroups to regions
more difficult.

If you need men, I have one 100% pure Kalash friend in
Pakistan and I have a Nuristani friend also in Pakistan.


I encourage everyone to undergo genealogical genetic testing, to the extent
that their financial resources allow. The more data points we have, the
better conclusions we can make.

The Kalash (Black Kafirs) and the Nuristani (Red Kafirs)
believe that they are originally the same race, but I do not
believe that they are and I think that both should be tested.


Your term 'race' here is both obsolete and incorrect. A better term is
'stock'.

Have tests like this on these people already been done?


I don't know whether a genetic study has been done on the peoples you
mention.

What do you think about this?


I think you would need to test men in the region of your interest, in the
hope of finding yDNA haplogroup P. If you find a significant percentage of
P, you have a strong argument that they are, or at least include, the human
stock from which Q and R emigrated.

With respect to Proto-Indo-Europeans in particular, here is an interesting
argument. Genetically, we usually presume that the original home of a
haplogroup is the region in which that haplogroup exhibits greatest
diversity. Well, one could make a similar argument for languages. In that
respect, consider this quotation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khowar
---
The Norwegian Linguist Georg Morgenstierne wrote that Chitral is the area of
the greatest linguistic diversity in the world. Although Khowar is the
predominant language of Chitral, more than ten other languages are spoken
here. These include Kalasha, Phalura, Dameli, Gawar-Bati, Nuristani, Yidgha,
Burushaski, Gujar, Wakhi, Kyrgyz, Persian and Pashto.
---

Of these, the following are definitely described as Indo-European: Pashto,
Persian, Wakhi, Gujar, Yidgha, Nuristani, Kalasha, and Khowar. The
following languages have not been well-studied and so are apparently not
definitively classified: Gawar-Bati, Dameli, and Phalura. Wikipedia says
that each of these three "is classified as a Dardic Language but this is
more of a geographical classification than a linguistic one." Burushaski is
an isolate, and Kyrgyz is Turkic.

This is what Wikipedia says of the Kalash:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalasha
---
One theory suggests that similarities in the culture of the Kalash and
Greco-Macedonian peoples stem from the expansion of Proto-Indo-Europeans.
---

My linguistic points here a

A) You could make an argument that Chitral is the cradle of
Proto-Indo-European, on the basis of linguistic diversity.

B) You could make an argument that the isolate languages of the region
(i.e., the languages that are not Indo-European, Turkic, etc.) might well be
remnant populations from earlier eras--e.g., the era of haplogroup P before
the emergence of Q and R.


Thank you for this very interesting idea. I had never thought of this
before, and since I have been thinking about this subject for the last
29 years, when I first got I involved with these people, that is
remarkable.

Several years ago, I read an article which said that there was a
certain strand of DNA which mathematically had 32 possible variations,
as in 2 to the fifth power. All 32 possibilities existed in Africa.
However, only 3 possibilities existed in populations outside of
Africa. In other words, all people outside of Africa, whether it be
European, Chinese, Australian Aborigine or Amazon Indian, were in one
of these three types, thereby proving that we are all more closely
related to each other than many people think.

Unfortunately, I put aside that article, intending to study it in
greater detail. I have never been able to find it again. I also do not
remember where I read it.

Is anybody here familiar with this article and can tell me where to
find it?

It is a fact that Chitral has more linguistic diversity, over a
smaller space with a smaller population, of any place in the world.
This had been observed by many researchers, starting with George
Morgenstierne in 1923. In the early 1980s, I went by foot to all of
these places and made word lists of all of these languages. Kendall
Decker did the same thing but in a more detailed and systematic way in
the early 1990s. Richard Strand, who is a greater expert than all of
us, has been studying this for the last 40 years. All of us have found
that there are ten Indo-European Languages spoken in Chitral which are
not really related to each other. There might even be more, because
most lists count Nuristani as one language, but Richard Strand says
that there are three distinct Nuristani languages.

All of these Indo-European Languages spoken in Chitral are classified
as Dardic Languages. However, everybody agrees that this a
geographical term, not a linguistic term.

Your suggestion is that this wide diversity could mean that the entire
Indo-European Family of Languages originated in Chitral. I am not
prepared to accept this and I am sure that nobody else is either, but
I do not think that this can be summarily rejected. Nobody can agree
on where the Indo-European Family Languages comes from and this seems
to be a possibility worth considering.

Sam Sloan


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Old June 3rd 06, 09:16 PM posted to soc.genealogy.britain,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.genealogy.medieval,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Sloan's Thesis as to the Origin of English People

At 12:54 AM 6/3/2006 +0100, wrote:
Sam

the Qamar study tested the following populations in Pakistan
Baluch
Balti
Brahui
Burusho
Hazara
Kalash
Kashmiri
Makrani Baluch
Negroid Makrani
Parsi
Pathan
Sindhi

It looks like they missed the Nuristanis - are they mainly in Afghanistan?

I have just found the following link
http://www.matthewleeming.com/pages/alex.html

I haven't had time to read it all - it looks like testing was being planned
for exactly the people you have described.

Gareth


Thank you for this information, which is very useful.

Prior to the war all Nuristanis were living in Afghanistan. None were
in Pakistan except for possibly a very small number across the border
near my wife's house in Jinjoret, Drosh, Chitral, Pakistan.

During the War, most Nuristanis were driven out of Afghanistan. I
personally know two Nuristani girls in Canada. I have established a
Nuristani email list at 17 Nuristanis have
joined. A few are in America but I do not know them.

I am often asked to help Nuristanis come to America, but I can no
longer help them because 9-11 has made it almost impossible for any
Afghan or Pakistani to get a visa to America.

I did help 56 Afghans come to America before 9-11, but none of them
were from Nuristan.

Sam Sloan
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Old June 6th 06, 05:21 AM posted to soc.genealogy.britain,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.genealogy.medieval,rec.games.chess.politics
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Default Sloan's Thesis as to the Origin of English People

--- In , "Richard F. Strand" [email protected]
wrote:

Sam/Ismail,

Here's what happened as I recall it. During Ramazan of 2003
Matthew enlisted me to accompany him to the Nuristani barracks in
Jalalabad. The trip had been arranged through Haji Zahir, the
commander of the Frontier Corps. At the place we interviewed
about two dozen soldiers, took cheek-swabs from some of them
(maybe around 15 of them; not all were willing to participate),
and wrote down their pertinent data. I remember the incident
well, as I was intrigued by some linguistic tidbits that I had
picked up there.

Afterward I returned to my office, leaving the collected materials
with Matthew, who, I believe, returned with them to Haji Zahir's
house, where he had been staying.

There was a problem finding enough Nuristanis at the barracks,
because most were on leave for Ramazan. Matthew had wanted to go
to Nuristan to gather more data, but we decided it would not be
workable until after Ramazan. He went back to England, saying he
would return in Jan. 2004.

While I was on home leave during that January, a box of test kits
showed up at my office, without any explanatory note. It was not
until May 2004, 3 months after I returned there, that I
discovered the box, which no one could remember having been
delivered. I wrote Matthew about it, and he did acknowledge that
he had had it sent there, and wondered, in an e-mail of 25 July
2004, whether the kits were still there. He was supposed to come
to Jalalabad the next day to continue the research, but at the
last minute there were security problems, and he couldn't make it.

I didn't hear from him until the following November, when he said
he was trying to get a grant to continue the project. He was
still pursuing that option in Feb of 2005, according to the last
e-mail I have from him. By that time I was so overwhelmed with
NGO work that I had no time to follow up with him on the project.

Richard


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ismail Sloan" [email protected]
To:
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 9:28 AM
Subject: [nuristan] Genetic testing of Nuristanis


--- In
, "Richard F. Strand"
[email protected] wrote:

Sam,

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure whether the box that

was
left at my office contained the actual samples or just empty
test-tube kits. I wrote Matthew regarding these over two years
ago, but received no reply. Maybe you can track him down and

find
out whatever happened to the samples, around 25 in all from
various tribes in Nuristan and the Pech Valley.

Richard Strand

Dear Richard,

I just spoke at length on the telephone to Matthew Leeming, who

is in
England. I had to try several times before I reached him.

His recollection is completely different from yours. He says

that he
brought a box of DNA test tube kits from England to Jalalabad.
However, you were not there. He thinks that you were in America.

He
just left the box in your office and went back to England.

He says that although you introduced him to some Nuristani

soldiers,
it was during the month of Ramadan and he could not collect any

DNA
samples for that reason. He had hoped to return after Ramadan.

He says that if any DNA samples were collected, it was by you,

as he
did not collect any.

He would be very anxious to get the DNA samples if you have

them.

I have invited him to join my Nuristan email group so that you

can
contact him directly.

Meanwhile, perhaps we can get Zainab here to contribute her

mtDNA to
this project. We would not even have to go back to Jalalabad for

that.

Haji Mohammad Ismail Sloan


Dear Richard,

This is a real problem because you and Matthew Leeming have completely
different recollections of what happened.

However, let us talk about money. There are several commercial
companies who do this kind of DNA testing.

However, what we need are serious scientific researchers, for the
simple reason that if for example you collect 25 DNA swabs from
Nuristanis, the amount involved to have them all tested would be
considerable.

Most of the serious researchers seem to be in England. People like
Mark Jobling and Spenser Wells for example.

I now realize that Matthew Leeming is primarily a tour guide, not a
scientist.

He says that he is trying to raise the money to proceed with this
project. Who does he have in mind to do the DNA testing? Is he
planning to pay $250 per test, for example?

I spoke to Matthew Leeming on the phone this morning. He promised to
join my email list so that he can communicate with you directly but
that was already 13 hours ago and he has not joined yet.

Did you notice that the University of Chicago did a study on the
presumed DNA of our friend Genghis Khan and found that NONE of the
Kalash have his DNA. The Nuristanis were not tested of course.

If you feel that you can produce the cheek swabs I can start making
calls to try to find someone to do the tests.

Sam
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