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Old November 7th 07, 11:15 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Default Ideas on the U.S. Men's and Women's Championships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Payne
Now this is just an Idea, so nobody crucify me.
And of course if you have variations please feel free to elaborate.
This is just a rough Idea.
What if there was a R.R. held before the US Championship
(excluding the present Champion) and then a match with the winner of
the R.R. and the present Champion. These matches could be held with
the R.R. in one city(just for example) Tulsa Ok. and the Championship
match in Stillwater or Oklahoma City. It might add some favor to the
U.S. Championships, bring in more sponsors, and have the opportunity
to make more revenue. As well as allow more people and media to have
excess to the matches. Just a thought that I an several others have
bantered around.
Maybe some other members have better Ideas.
Please no arguments, and no Hijacking!!! On Penalty of
death. :twisted:
Maybe some TD's have ideas or some board members. Thanks to all that
respond.
Although your idea seems reasonable and has been suggested before, I
do not think it is workable, for several reasons:

1. The USCF already has trouble raising money for the USCF
Championship tournament every year. Under your plan, there would have
to be money raised for a qualifying tournament. There will be little
interest by the general public in this qualifying tournament, and the
players will not be especially interested either. You will have to pay
the top players substantial appearance fees or guaranteed prizes to
get them to play. Look at the letter Joel Benjamin had published in
"New In Chess" magazine in which he complained bitterly that the prize
fund in the US Championship in Stillwater, Oklahoma was "only"
$65,000.

2. The USCF was formed on December 27, 1939 for the purpose of holding
a US Championship tournament. Prior to that time, the championship had
been a match between the champion and a challenger. The challenger had
to raise the money for the match and there were few matches held. This
plan was obviously not very successful and I think it would be a
mistake to go back to it.

3. Several posters have written of a "media frenzy" when the US
Championship is held in a small town. I have been to many US
Championships. I do not recall a single one where there were more than
ten spectators. You were at the 2007 US Championship in Stillwater. I
think you were the only real spectator. Everybody else there was a
player or was there on business. Did the local newspapers in
Stillwater even cover it? I like to make jokes about Stillwater having
the highest paid college football team in the country. You would
imagine that there would have been some interest in a major chess
tournament there.

4. A motion similar to yours was made by Don Schultz when I was on the
board. The motion immediately got the votes of Don Schultz and Bill
Goichberg. A third board member was thinking of voting for it until I
shot it down with a letter to the board making many of the same points
as above. As a result, the Schultz motion failed. The board then
censured me for writing the letter.

The letter and the board motion censuring me for writing it was posted
on the USCF Website and it is attached here.
http://www.samsloan.com/sloan-censured-by-board.pdf

Will the board now censure anybody who disagrees with your idea?

Sam Sloan

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Old November 8th 07, 05:13 AM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Default Ideas on the U.S. Men's and Women's Championships

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHESSDON
Dear Harry:

I have the same idea and I continue to work on making it happen. I
suggested several times to Erik Anderson that AF4C sponsor a match
between Nakamura and Kamsky and get the winner to be sanctioned as the
official US match champion.

I now have the thought that the match be in 2008 and in 2009 the
winner of the match play the winner of the US championship for the
2009 US Championship - no 2009 US Championship tournament - but a
tournament to see who challenges the champions for a match. You would
then have tournaments and matches on alternate years.

And Sam - your memory fails you. Bill Goichberg does not like Harry
and my idea at all. He favor a large Swiss that allows qualifiers from
all the major tournaments. I am running this years US Senior
Championship and clearly see the value of qualifiers. Nevertheless I
favor the matches and Bill just as strongly favors tournaments. These
are legitimate differences of opinion and deserve constructive
dialogue. Sam is right in that my enthusiasm for the match approach
didn't go very far - I don't remember anyone preferring it.

Don Schultz[/b]
Dear Don,

Glad to hear from you as you have been away for a while I believe. I
understand
that you have just had your 50th wedding anniversary. Congratulations,
but I do have a question. It must cost a lot of money to have 50 wives
and a wedding anniversary for each one. How can you afford it?

I am glad that you pointed out the differences between you and Bill
Goichberg. As you correctly point out, Bill always favors big Swisses,
or Frankenswisses as Tom Dorsch used to call them. Bill is entitled to
his opinion, but I strongly object to the way he organized the US
Championship in Stillwater, deciding on the format and inviting the
players that he wanted to invite without consulting the board or even
telling us what he was doing. Then, we got blamed for all the problems
he caused. Witness for example the article published by Joel Benjamin
in "New in Chess" magazine in which he blamed me, Sam Sloan, of all
people for all the problems with the US Championship when I (and for
that matter you) were left out of it in the cold and had nothing to do
with it.

For example, Bill Goichberg decided that he wanted four women in the
tournament, for what reason I do not know. When almost all of the top
women declined, Bill just kept going down the list inviting lower and
lower rated players. He finally found two experts, Iryna Zenyuk rated
2184 and Chouchanik Airapetian rated 2188, who were willing to play.
Meanwhile, Ben Finegold, a legitimate contender for the US
Championship and rated 2611, could not get an invitation.

Regarding the benefits of a match over a tournament, I wish to remind
you that in 1995, there was a title match between Kasparov and Anand
for the World Chess Championship held in New York City's World Trade
Center. In spite of being located in the media center of the world,
this event received almost no publicity.

However, I like your idea of a match between Nakamura and Kamsky. This
would be exciting to me because they are by far our most promising
players and each is a potential contender for the World Championship.
However, I do not think it needs to be a match for the US
Championship. Just a match between the two top players is enough.
Remember that the most famous match ever played in the USA was the
match between Fischer and Reshevsky and no title was at stake, only
prize money.

Sam Sloan

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Old November 8th 07, 09:36 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Default Ideas on the U.S. Men's and Women's Championships

On Nov 8, 12:13 am, samsloan wrote:

Remember that the most famous match ever played in the USA was the
match between Fischer and Reshevsky and no title was at stake, only
prize money.


Highly debatable. World Championship matches held on US soil have
included Steinitz-Zukertort 1886, Steinitz-Gunsberg 1890-91, Lasker-
Steinitz 1894, Lasker-Marshall 1907, Kasparov-Karpov 1990, and
Kasparov-Anand 1995. It's not clear what Sloan means by "most famous,"
but I would think that at least some of these, perhaps all, were/are
more famous than Fischer-Reshevsky, especially in terms of the
attention they garnered from the chess world as a whole, as well as
from the American public.

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Old November 9th 07, 11:51 AM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Default Ideas on the U.S. Men's and Women's Championships

On Nov 8, 4:36 pm, Taylor Kingston wrote:
On Nov 8, 12:13 am, samsloan wrote:

Remember that the most famous match ever played in the USA was the
match between Fischer and Reshevsky and no title was at stake, only
prize money.


Highly debatable. World Championship matches held on US soil have
included Steinitz-Zukertort 1886, Steinitz-Gunsberg 1890-91, Lasker-
Steinitz 1894, Lasker-Marshall 1907, Kasparov-Karpov 1990, and
Kasparov-Anand 1995. It's not clear what Sloan means by "most famous,"
but I would think that at least some of these, perhaps all, were/are
more famous than Fischer-Reshevsky, especially in terms of the
attention they garnered from the chess world as a whole, as well as
from the American public.


Sloan means 'most famous since 'real chess' was played, which started
at my birth.'

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Old November 13th 07, 12:08 AM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Default Ideas on the U.S. Men's and Women's Championships

Prior 2000 the US Championship was a 16 player Round Robin usually
held in New York City with a $25,000 prize fund.

All the top players played. It was rare for a top player to turn down
an invitation.

Then in 2000 AF4C came in, made it into a Swiss with qualifying
tournaments, mixed the men and women's championships and offered a
$100,000 prize fund.

In 2006, AF4C put up a record $250,000 prize fund and then was
attacked by those such as Susan Polgar who complained on her blog that
the prizes were "too small".

In 2007, Frank Berry put up $50,000 of his own personal money and Joel
Benjamin refused to play, citing the low prize fund.

In say, go back to the traditional round robin. The Goichberg-style
Big Swiss format is not working.

Sam Sloan



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Old November 13th 07, 02:30 AM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Default Ideas on the U.S. Men's and Women's Championships


samsloan wrote:
Prior 2000 the US Championship was a 16 player Round Robin usually
held in New York City with a $25,000 prize fund.

All the top players played. It was rare for a top player to turn down
an invitation.

Then in 2000 AF4C came in, made it into a Swiss with qualifying
tournaments, mixed the men and women's championships and offered a
$100,000 prize fund.

In 2006, AF4C put up a record $250,000 prize fund and then was
attacked by those such as Susan Polgar who complained on her blog that
the prizes were "too small".

In 2007, Frank Berry put up $50,000 of his own personal money and Joel
Benjamin refused to play, citing the low prize fund.

In say, go back to the traditional round robin. The Goichberg-style
Big Swiss format is not working.

Sam Sloan


Quote:
Originally Posted by rfeditor
Quote:
Originally Posted by samsloan
Prior 2000 the US Championship was
a 16 player Round Robin usually held in New York City with a $25,000
prize fund.
Sam Sloan

"Usually held in New York City"? There were 25 U.S. Championships
between 1973 and 1999. 22 of them were not in New York City. (Unless
you're counting Parsipanny 1996, which would probably annoy the
citizens of New Jersey.) One -- 1973 -- was in NYC. I'm not sure about
1993 and 1994, and can't be bothered to look them up just now.

It's also not true that the tournament was always a 16-player round
robin. The number of players varied from12 to 18, and it was run as a
knock-out four or five times.

If you're trying to make a serious argument (with which I agree, by
the way) for a "traditional" RR-format U.S. Championship, these kinds
of silly mistakes will only serve to discredit your argument -- and
you.
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Old November 13th 07, 11:07 AM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George
I really feel sorry for AF4C. They put up a lot of
money and watched it get wasted.

They sat there while watching class "C" players play against the top
Grandmasters. I feel the problem was the organizers like Goichberg
who wanted to fatten up the participation at their personal
tournaments by making them a qualifier for the US Championship. It is
the "hidden" silent way to strip money and value out of the USCF.
Stripping value from the prestige of the US Championship and allowing
the "qualifying" tournament organizers like Goichberg make profits
quietly and hidden.

Then what happened is that the AF4C donated huge amounts of money and
got very little value for their donation. The USCF ran the tournament
for their own personal benefit and not for the benefit of picking the
best player to be the US Champion.

I am still unhappy and frustrated by what happened. It was obvious at
the time and it is still obvious.
On these points, I agree completely with George. In the 2006 US
Championship, a player rated 1672 got in, not because she beat
somebody, but because she was the only woman willing to pay the $75
qualifier fee.

In 2007, Bill Goichberg raised the bar slightly and the lowest rated
player was a woman rated 2188.

The reason that in past years the top players almost always accepted
invitations to the US Championship was that there was prestige
associated with being in the US Championship. Now, there is no longer
any prestige. Anybody could have played in the 2007 US Championship
merely by paying the $25,000 entry fee. Two players did buy their way
into the 2007 US Championship. One paid $4,000. The other paid $5,000.

Basically, our US Championship has been sold out just to increase the
revenues of Bill Goichberg, who collects the entry fees of those
seeking to qualify from his tournaments.

Sam Sloan

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Old November 13th 07, 05:21 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Default Ideas on the U.S. Men's and Women's Championships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Payne
I can absolutely not see how the continued
attacks on Bill Goichberg, is adding to this conversation in any
meaningful way. We are looking for ideas to help make future U.S.
Championships better. So Sam I am going to ask you to confine your
comments to the topic ,or do not post on this thread again. Thank
You .
Bill Goichberg's name is mentioned because he organized the 2007 US
Championship the same way he organized the World Open.

At the World Open, Bill Goichberg decided the playing dates, the time
control, the number of rounds, the entry fees, the prizes for each
section, the special rules and in short everything about the
tournament.

He was able to do that because he owns the tournament. It is his
personal property. I believe that he has a registered trade name for
the tournament.

That is fine and nobody will object because everybody knows that he
owns the tournament.

However, Bill Goichberg does not own the US Championship. The members
do. Nevertheless, he ran the US Championship the same way that he runs
the World Open, deciding whom to invite, who got in for free, who had
to pay an entry fee and how much, the format of the event, the time
control and everything else about the tournament.

I was on the board at the time and neither I nor any other board
member was ever consulted about these decisions. The first we heard
about them was when we read them on the uschess.org website.

However, everybody naturally assumes that these decisions were made by
the board. As a result, when anything goes wrong, we get the blame.
Witness for example, Joel Benjamin's letter published in "New In
Chess" magazine in which he blames all the problems with the US
Championship on me, Sam Sloan, when I had nothing to do with any of
it.

Sam Sloan

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Old November 13th 07, 05:34 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Default Ideas on the U.S. Men's and Women's Championships

Frank Berry wrote:

This last paragraph below is total baloney because NONE of Goichberg's tourney will be used for qualification spots for the two 2008 FKB US Championships.....
As usual Sam is wrong in his criticisms, postings and conclusions.? Very Wrong. Also GM Gulko?told me yesterday he VERY MUCH wanted to qualify to play in the FKB US Championship.? VERY MUCH.? Sam is wrong to say nobody wants to play in the event anymore.? Very Wrong again.... as usual.
Frank K. Berry


Dear Frank,

Thank you for your comments and your update.

Of course, I was referring to the 2007 US Championship, not the 2008
US Championship which has not even been announced yet.

I am sure that you will do a better job and I hope you will be
successful in keeping Bill Goichberg's intrusive fingers out of the
event. Tell him to get a board resolution for any changes he tries to
insist upon.

Please try to invite Ben Finegold, who was unfairly excluded from the
2007 US Championship.

Sam Sloan

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Old November 14th 07, 11:16 AM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Default Ideas on the U.S. Men's and Women's Championships

Please try to invite Ben Finegold, who was unfairly excluded from the
2007 US Championship.

Sam Sloan



How about just using the invitational formula and sticking to it...rather
than trying to play favorites?

ECJ



For a change I agree with Eric. In fact, so does A. Adorjan - several GMs
have contributed questions to a current interview of Mickey Adams, and
Adorjan asked very directly and succinctly [I paraphrase] if the top 100
players by rating in the world were all thrown together in a 13 round Swiss,
do you think the top ratings would win? With an additional note that maybe
the top 50 players in the world earn 95% of all prize money. It will be
interesting to read Adams' reply.

I wonder what would happen if a similar tournament was held in the USA? In
terms of interest, there would be so many underdogs with good performances,
it would make for good press. I do not agree with Eric that chess
sponsorship is a philanthropic activity, only that it is usually so - and
that is because, albeit USCF has a paid staff, money comes from media, and
media savvy sux!

Done right, just 1 hour of TV programming could fund the whole shebang.

This is not a fling at USCF, but it is a notice that it is a sinking pool
for ideas relating to sponsorship. If it could keep its [political] hands
out of the till, no reason why it couldn't still affiliate itself with such
a venture.

Phil Innes
Vermont


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