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Old July 16th 03, 04:33 PM
Don Mihokovich
 
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Default Pre-arranged result in other sports

Hypothetical: In a Little League girls softball tournament, the
tiebreaker for teams to advance from pool play into the brackets was
average runs allowed per inning. In the last game in pool "A,"
neither team would advance, even with a win, if the game ended in the
standard 6 innings, but one or the other might advance if the game
went at least 8 innings and was a very low scoring game (i.e. 1-0).
So for the first 6 innings, they did whatever they could to not score,
i.e. swing and miss at really bad pitches, overrun 2nd base to get
tagged, etc..... The officials called Williamsport for a ruling and
it was declared a double forfeit for making a mockery of the game.

Now why are pre-arranged results in most sports (such as the above
example) declared as double forfeits, but widely accepted in Chess?
Is it just because the GMs make a few good/book moves before agreeing
to the draw? Perhaps the difference is that in baseball, you must
play a given number of innings, but in Chess, there are no minimum
number of moves. Perhaps the idea of not allowing draw agreements
until a certain number of moves have been played is not such a bad
one; but better appears to be 3 points for a win and 1 point for a
draw. Pre-arranged draws would still happen, but would likely be more
rare.

KidDon

Disclaimer: The LL baseball example is loosly based on a real
tournament, but with the facts changed somewhat to fit the
question/analogy. The real facts were that team A had a chance to
beat team B in 6 innings, but would not advance because of the
tiebreaker based on average number of runs. Team A needed the game to
last a couple of more innings, so it gave up outs intentionally in
order to go into extra innings. They made it too obvious and a call
was made to Williamsport HQ which instructed the officials to rule the
game a forfeit for Team A. Neither team advanced.

KidDon
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Old July 16th 03, 05:15 PM
Fifiela
 
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Default Pre-arranged result in other sports

Perhaps the idea of not allowing draw agreements
until a certain number of moves have been played is not such a bad
one; but better appears to be 3 points for a win and 1 point for a
draw. Pre-arranged draws would still happen, but would likely be more
rare.

I've long been in favor of 3W/1D but....
Pre-arranged draws would nearly disappear but pre-arranged loses would increase
but at least it would have to look good. USCF would also need a rule that
organizers could not cut two equal checks to any winner. Ganes could still be
tossed but would require high level of trust.
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Old July 17th 03, 01:14 AM
John Fernandez
 
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Default Pre-arranged result in other sports

Now why are pre-arranged results in most sports (such as the above
example) declared as double forfeits, but widely accepted in Chess?


Because in chess, even the very short GM draws, or even the writing 1/2-1/2
draws are almost NEVER pre-arranged. They're obvious from the tournament and
color situation.

John Fernandez
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Old July 17th 03, 04:14 AM
LeModernCaveman
 
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Default Pre-arranged result in other sports

How come Fischer never had this problem?

By agreeing to draws like that a player loses his place in history by bringing
an inferior rival to his level.

Rightfully.


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Old July 17th 03, 12:29 PM
John Fernandez
 
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Default Pre-arranged result in other sports

From over 750 tournament games?

Fischer fought to win much more often than not, and always when it counted.


Always?

I can find a lot of cases where he didn't win when he needed to. Your use of
these "never" and "always" lines is pretty absurd.

Fischer had about 900 games in ChessBase and 19 sub 20 draws. Of course,
there's a lot of simul games in there and I'm too lazy to wade through them.
Kasparov has 2,282 games in the database and 115 such draws.

John Fernandez
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