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Old December 28th 08, 10:09 AM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,soc.culture.japan
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Default Brad Darrach in Iceland in 1972

Although I visited Reyjkavik Iceland twice during the 1972 Fischer-
Spassky Match, I was in most cases not involved in the events
described in his book. My name is never mentioned here or indeed in
any press reports about the match.

Nevertheless, I did play a small role in the events in Iceland.

First, there is a specific reason why my name is not mentioned in the
book, which is that I went to great lengths to make sure that Brad
Darrach, the author, did not get to interview me.

The reason for this goes back to an unrelated incident in 1966. At
that time, I was a student at the University of California at Berkeley
and I was the President of a small student club. (I will not bother to
mention the name of the club, as it is well known.)

I was approached by a Life Magazine reporter named Jordan Bonfante,
who said that he wanted to write an article about my club. As I was
interested in getting some publicity for the club, I welcomed him.

He proceeded to come to several of my events, including a party I held
at 2535 Benvenue Avenue in Berkeley. He even brought along his
girlfriend, danced with her at the party and seemed to have a good
time, although I must add that they did not fully participate in the
events of the party, if you get my drift.

Eventually, Jordan Bonfante came so often that I began to think of him
as a member of my group. I forgot all about the fact that he had
originally introduced himself to me as a Time-Life Reporter, working
on a story for the magazines.

I was shocked when the article appeared in the magazine a few months
later. It was a completely negative article, filled with attacks on my
group. He did not have one good word to say about us.

When I got off the airplane in Keflavik Iceland on Saturday, August
12, 1972, I was greeted by Grandmaster William Lombardy, Bobby's
second, who had come to the airport to welcome Paul Marshall, Bobby's
lawyer, who by coincidence had arrived on the same airplane with me.
Lombardy had his driver with him and gave us both a ride to the
Loftleider Hotel in Reykjavik.

When I got out of Lombardy's car and entered the hotel with Lombardy,
I was immediately greeted by a man who introduced himself and picked
up my briefcase and started carrying it to the hotel registration
desk. At first I thought that this man was a hotel bellman. However,
when I found out that this was Brad Darrach, a Time-Life Reporter, I
had a flash-back to what had happened with Jordan Bonfante six years
earlier. So, I told him in no uncertain terms that I wanted my
briefcase back. From that point on, I ignored Brad Darrach, avoided
him and refused to talk to him.

This is the reason why my name is not in his book.

I could see that he was following the same technique that Jordan
Bonfante had followed, which is to get involved with the people,
become their friends, participate in events with them, and become so
totally immersed in their scene that they would forget that he was,
after all, a news reporter. That was what Jordan Bonfante had done
with my little student club at the University of California at
Berkeley in 1966 and was the same thing that Brad Darrach did with the
American chess players during the Fischer-Spassky Match in 1972. This
must be the Time-Life Method.

Ever since, Grandmaster Lombardy has expressed admiration for the fact
that I correctly sized up Brad Darrach immediately, as soon as I met
him, and that I was the only one who avoided him and was not taken in
by him.

However, had it not been for Brad Darrach, we would not have his book.

Sam Sloan
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Old December 28th 08, 12:04 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,soc.culture.usa
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Default Brad Darrach in Iceland in 1972

I was only there for a weekend as I was the principal of a Wall Street
securities broker-dealer at the time and I was the only person with
the authority to sign checks, so it was absolutely necessary that I be
back in my office in New York by Monday morning.

I had come to Iceland on that day because I had received a call from
Andy Davis, one of Bobby Fischer's lawyers, who told me that Bobby was
interested in having me come over for the match. I had just received
my first passport and had never been to Europe before. So, as soon as
the Stock Market closed, I went out to Kennedy Airport and caught a
Loftleidir flight to Iceland.

Loftleidir was the name of the Icelandic Airlines and also the name of
the Hotel in Reykjavik that the airlines owned. There was an airplane
landing strip right behind the hotel where airplanes used to take off
and land in earlier years. However, with the advent of larger
aircraft, the International Airport had been moved out to Keflavik Air
Base, which was a NATO military base maintained primarily by American
Military Personnel.

As I was soon to learn, at that time the Loftleidir flights followed
no particular schedule. They were supposed to depart from JFK Airport
in the evenings, but they always left late. Eventually, I went to
Iceland eleven times. I never bothered to make a reservation. I just
went out to JFK Airport some time in the evenings. The flight would
always be late. Usually, the airline staff would tell me that the
flight was full. However, I found that if I just waited around long
enough, a seat would materialize even after the staff told me that it
was “impossible, impossible” to get on the flight. It never happened
even once that I missed a flight that I was trying to get on.

Now I will reveal my involvement in one of the most shocking episodes
of the match, something I have never revealed before, especially since
Bobby was still alive.
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Old December 28th 08, 02:49 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc
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Default Brad Darrach in Iceland in 1972

On Dec 28, 7:04*am, samsloan wrote:

Now I will reveal my involvement in one of the most shocking episodes
of the match, something I have never revealed before, especially since
Bobby was still alive.


At last! An explanation of 29...Bxh2!

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Old December 28th 08, 03:24 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,soc.culture.usa
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Default Brad Darrach in Iceland in 1972

Now I will reveal my involvement in one of the most shocking episodes
of the match, something I have never revealed before, especially since
my friend Bobby was still alive.

When I got to the Hotel Loftleidir and announced my arrival (after
shooing off Brad Darrach) the word came down soon that Bobby would
like to see me. I was escorted up to Bobby's inner sanctum.

Bobby was sitting at a huge table in a large hotel suite and the table
was filled with all kinds of different foods. There were especially a
lot of different kinds of fruits such as bananas and oranges and some
things I did not even know the names of, plus a large pitcher of
orange juice. Bobby invited me to eat anything I wanted. He was
building himself up for the big chess matches.

By evening, Fred Cramer arrived in Bobby's hotel suite. They talked
for a while and then Bobby said, “Let's go look at the boards”.

I had no idea where we were going but we all got in a car together,
which took us to the chess playing hall. There was an Icelandic
watchman there standing guard. Fred Cramer told the watchman that we
wanted to enter the building to check out the playing site. The
watchman protested but he finally let us in after some discussion.

By now it was nearly midnight. There was nobody in the playing hall
but us.

On the stage where the match was being played, there were six chess
tables. Each table had an inlaid chess board in it and around each
board was a ring. All these parts were removable. You could take out
the chess board in the center of the table and put one of the other
boards in. You could take out one of the rings and put another ring
in. So, in other words you had 6 x 6 x 6 possible combinations or 216
possibilities. Each of the six possible tables had six possible rings
and six possible boards inside.

So, we proceeded to try everyone of the possible combinations. We
would take out the board that was inside the main table and put in one
of the other boards. We would take out the ring and put in one of the
other rings. We just kept at this until every possibility was tried.

Fred Cramer and I had the opposite approach. With every combination
Fred would say, “This is really nice Bobby. Just perfect. We should
use this one.”

I knew that this would not work. Trying to get Bobby to agree to
something is just going nowhere, so I would always try to find
something wrong with the combination that was being suggested. I would
say, “Oh. This in no good. No good at all. Why in this one the grain
runs right to left whereas the grain ogf the wood in the ring runs
vertically whereas the grain of the wood on the table runs diagonally.
The players will get the grain of the wood mixed of with the moves of
the chess game and start blundering.”

Or, I might say, “Wait a second. This board has a knot in the wood.
That is no good at all.” I would point to the knot in the wood to make
sure that Bobby saw it.

This process continued for several hours. For every combination, Fred
Cramer said that it was “just perfect” but I said that it was “no
good”.

By the way, each of these tables had been made by fine artists and
craftsmen.

So, after trying all these possibilities we came back to the original
one, the one that was actually being used in the chess match. I could
see that the original one was the one that was actually the best of
all 216 possibilities. So, Bobby looked at it again, stroked his chin
and said, “Let's come back to this later”.

So, without ever agreeing to continue the match on the same board that
was already being used, Bobby decided that we should leave, so we all
went back to the Hotel Loftleidir.

Two days later (after missing my flight back which is another story I
will tell later) I flew back to New York. It was then that I was
sitting in my Wall Street stock brokerage office where I had set up a
TV so that I could watch the match while trading stocks, that the news
story broke world wide.

“The Chess Boards have been Bobby-Trapped”, Headlines screamed.

Grandmaster Geller, Spassky's second, wrote a letter dated August 22,
1972 to the Icelandic organizers of the Fischer-Spassky Match,
stating:
"It is surprising that the Americans can be found in the playing hall
when the games are not taking place even at night …".

This led to what became known internationally as “The Case of Two Dead
Flies”. Everything in the playing hall had to be taken apart, examined
and even x-rayed. Not only the chess boards and tables but the pieces,
the chairs, the lighting fixtures and everything else. The end result
of all this investigation and examination was that it was officially
announced to the press and to the world that two foreign objects has
been found in the lightning fixtures. They we

Two Dead Flies

While this was blaring on the international news, I was sitting in my
Wall Street stock market office in New York trading stocks and
watching it on TV. Since I had come to Reykjavik and left so quickly
only two days later, without ever allowing that intrepid reporter Brad
Darrach to interview me, nobody had the slightest idea that I was the
mysterious American involved in this. Of course, I was not going to
tell anybody either.

Sam Sloan
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Old December 28th 08, 04:29 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,soc.culture.usa
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Default Brad Darrach in Iceland in 1972

Games; Fischer vs. Spassky: Who Killed Those Two Flies -- And Why?
[PDF]
REYKJAVIK -- The most bizarre episode in this most bizarre of chess
matches was enacted last week with the Case of the Two Dead
Flies....View free preview

August 27, 1972 - -- HAROLD C. SCHONBERG - Editorial
Chess Play Adjourned [PDF]


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Old December 28th 08, 08:42 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Default Brad Darrach in Iceland in 1972

On Dec 28, 5:09*am, samsloan wrote:

Ever since, Grandmaster Lombardy has expressed admiration for the fact
that I correctly sized up Brad Darrach immediately, as soon as I met
him, and that I was the only one who avoided him and was not taken in
by him.

However, had it not been for Brad Darrach, we would not have his book.



Just one small point on this: although Mr. Sloan
tells us that the Time-Life story was "completely
negative", for some reason not a single example
of any error was mentioned. Clearly, one could
get the impression that the TL story was then,
/justifiably/ negative.

As for Mr. Darrash's story regarding BF, it is
noteable that again, no errors were pointed out
by Mr. Fischer's cronies, and it appears to be
his "objectivity" itself which is objected to; for
instance, Mr. Evans refered to BD's "keen eye"
(rather than, say, inform readers that BF did
*not* walk like a giant duck).


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Old December 28th 08, 10:22 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,soc.culture.japan
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Default Brad Darrach in Iceland in 1972

On Dec 28, 5:09*am, samsloan wrote:
Although I visited Reyjkavik Iceland twice during the 1972 Fischer-
Spassky Match, I was in most cases not involved in the events
described in his book. My name is never mentioned here or indeed in
any press reports about the match.


Considering that you played no significant role there, this is quite
understandable.

Nevertheless, I did play a small role in the events in Iceland.

First, there is a specific reason why my name is not mentioned in the
book, which is that I went to great lengths to make sure that Brad
Darrach, the author, did not get to interview me.

The reason for this goes back to an unrelated incident in 1966. At
that time, I was a student at the University of California at Berkeley
and I was the President of a small student club. (I will not bother to
mention the name of the club, as it is well known.)

I was approached by a Life Magazine reporter named Jordan Bonfante,
who said that he wanted to write an article about my club. As I was
interested in getting some publicity for the club, I welcomed him.

He proceeded to come to several of my events, including a party I held
at 2535 Benvenue Avenue in Berkeley. He even brought along his
girlfriend, danced with her at the party and seemed to have a good
time, although I must add that they did not fully participate in the
events of the party, if you get my drift.


Perhaps they wished to avoid contracting an embarrassing disease.

Eventually, Jordan Bonfante came so often that I began to think of him
as a member of my group. I forgot all about the fact that he had
originally introduced himself to me as a Time-Life Reporter, working
on a story for the magazines.


Amazing that our Sam, with his steel-trap mind usually so tenacious
on matters of factual detail, should forget something so important.

I was shocked when the article appeared in the magazine a few months
later. It was a completely negative article, filled with attacks on my
group. He did not have one good word to say about us.


Can you please tell us the specific issue involved? This will allow
us (1) to see if Sam is telling the truth, and (2) if he is, to have
more ammo any time he gets the notion to run for USCF office.

When I got off the airplane in Keflavik Iceland on Saturday, August
12, 1972, I was greeted by Grandmaster William Lombardy, Bobby's
second, who had come to the airport to welcome Paul Marshall, Bobby's
lawyer, who by coincidence had arrived on the same airplane with me.
Lombardy had his driver with him and gave us both a ride to the
Loftleider Hotel in Reykjavik.

When I got out of Lombardy's car and entered the hotel with Lombardy,
I was immediately greeted by a man who introduced himself and picked
up my briefcase and started carrying it to the hotel registration
desk. At first I thought that this man was a hotel bellman. However,
when I found out that this was Brad Darrach, a Time-Life Reporter, I
had a flash-back to what had happened with Jordan Bonfante six years
earlier. So, I told him in no uncertain terms that I wanted my
briefcase back. From that point on, I ignored Brad Darrach, avoided
him and refused to talk to him.

This is the reason why my name is not in his book.


Or could it be that the events you describe never actually occurred?
That your presence in Reykjavik was virtually ignored?

I could see that he was following the same technique that Jordan
Bonfante had followed, which is to get involved with the people,
become their friends, participate in events with them, and become so
totally immersed in their scene that they would forget that he was,
after all, a news reporter. That was what Jordan Bonfante had done
with my little student club at the University of California at
Berkeley in 1966 and was the same thing that Brad Darrach did with the
American chess players during the Fischer-Spassky Match in 1972. This
must be the Time-Life Method.

Ever since, Grandmaster Lombardy has expressed admiration for the fact
that I correctly sized up Brad Darrach immediately, as soon as I met
him, and that I was the only one who avoided him and was not taken in
by him.

However, had it not been for Brad Darrach, we would not have his book.

Sam Sloan


My strong hunch is that this whole tale is either (a) a conscious
fabrication, or (b) the hallucinatory product of an acid flashback.
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Old December 29th 08, 07:10 AM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,soc.culture.japan
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Default Brad Darrach in Iceland in 1972

wrote:

My strong hunch is that this whole tale is either (a) a conscious
fabrication, or (b) the hallucinatory product of an acid flashback.


There is little doubt that the former is true. this person lives in a
world of fantasy, and is quite likely a complete psycho. I doubt there
is even one fact in this story.
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Old December 29th 08, 07:59 AM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess
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Default Brad Darrach in Iceland in 1972

On Dec 29, 2:10*am, Vacca wrote:

wrote:

* My strong hunch is that this whole tale is either (a) a conscious
fabrication, or (b) the hallucinatory product of an acid flashback.


There is little doubt that the former is true. this person lives in a
world of fantasy, and is quite likely a complete psycho. I doubt there
is even one fact in this story.



It is quite possible for even a man like Mr.
Sloan to have "been there" during some of
these events, although it is obvious that he
is fantasizing regarding his importance, or
the importance of all trivialities surrounding
this match, for that matter.

Clearly the comment above, which
questions whether Mr. Sloan managed to
get even one fact right, reveals an
astounding ignorance; everyone knows
about the dead flies, about the complaints
regarding odd behavior, such as lurking
around the playing site after hours, and so
forth.

The only question is, did Mr. Sloan in
fact go to Iceland for this match, and if so,
why, when he purportedly knew he had to
immediately fly back to take care of
important business? I suppose some
people can just fly around the world on a
whim, having money to burn. (Not me; I
might /drive/ to Iceland... .)

As Mr. Sloan himself brought up the
subject (without actually naming it) of
sex -- the club he kept harping about --
and Mr. Kingston mentioned drugs, I
think it only fair that I toss in rock'n'roll,
for good measure. That's better-- fair
and balanced; sex, drugs, AND rock'n'
roll.

I think it was Dr. IMnes who mentioned
a well-reasoned article (something of a
rareity in chess) which explained why
this 1972 match was not a particularly
important event in the Cold War. Less
fun than bashing Mr. Sloan but perhaps
more informative would be reading that
article, instead of endlessly obsessing
over this zany match.


-- help bot




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Old December 29th 08, 12:44 PM posted to rec.games.chess.politics,rec.games.chess.misc,alt.chess,rec.games.chess.computer,soc.culture.usa
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Default Brad Darrach in Iceland in 1972

When the story hit the World News about Americans in the Chess Playing
Room in the Dead of Night, every major newspaper carried the story. Of
course, nobody knew that there was a certain element of truth behind
it. Nobody knew that Fischer, Cramer and myself had actually entered
the playing hall at midnight to examine the boards. They just thought
that Spassky had gone crazy by alleging this. I never told anybody
until just now, and I am sure that Fischer would never tell anybody. I
am also almost certain that Cramer would never have told anybody.

However, the one person who knew for sure that we had been in there
was the Icelandic Night Watchman. He must have told his superiors, so
the Icelanders knew about it and one of them must have told the
Russians.

However, the Russians did not find out about it right away. We went
into the playing hall on the night of August 12. The Russians did not
complain about it until over a week later. There is also the
possibility that Fischer and Cramer went in there more than that one
time.

I have just confirmed with Don Schultz who briefly headed the American
delegation during this time that he never knew that somebody had
actually been in the playing hall late at night, until I just told him
about it. He says that Spassky believes, to this day, that somebody
put something in the chairs to affect his play. The truth is that we
never touched the chairs. We only changed the boards and, in the end,
we put the boards back the way that they had been originally.

This is the reason why, when the Russians started complaining about
it, everybody thought they had gone crazy, as in insane.

Here are some of the newspaper articles relating to this incident:

On August 23, 1972, the New York Times Reported:

Russians suggest Fischer Uses Electronics to Weaken Spassky

By HAROLD C. SCHONBERG

Special to The New York Times

REYKJAVIK, Iceland, Aug. 22-Boris Spassky and Bobby Fischer adjourned
the 17th game in their match for the world chess championship tonight
amid assertions by the Russians that the Americans might be using
"electronic devices and a chemical substance" to weaken Spassky's
playing, ability.

A long statement to that effect was issued by Efim Geller, the
champion's second, in which he demanded that the referee, Lothar
Schmid, and the sponsors of the match examine the playing hall "with
the assistance of competent experts" to determine whether the
Americans are using "non-chess means" to influence Spassky.

"It is surprising that the Americans can be found in the playing hall
when the games are not taking place even at night," Geller's statement
said. Speaking of Spassky's lackluster performance in the games played
thus far Geller said:

"Having known [Spassky] for many years, it is the first time that I
observe such unusual slackening of concentration and display of
impulsiveness in his playing which I cannot account for by [Fischer's]
exclusively impressive playing."

On August 25, 1972, The New York Times reported:

The investigation turned up two dead flies in alighting fixture.

No Tampering Found

Sigmundur Gudbjarnason, a professor of chemistry, and Dadi Augustin,
an electronics engineer, were asked to survey the hall. Mr. Augustin
made a visual and- technical inspection of the lighting, about which
Geller was suspicious, and the only thing he discovered were the dead
flies.

He concluded that there had been no tampering with the lights.

Mr. Augustin also brought X-ray equipment to the stage and took
pictures of the chairs, especially Fischer's. teller had wondered why
Fischer always insisted on his own chair. After the X-ray report, Mr.
Augustin was able to testify that Fischer's chair was identical in
every respect with Spassky's. There was nothing unusual inside either
chair.

After subjecting scrapings of both chairs to chemical analysis and gas
chromography, Mr. Gudbjarnason decided that no alien or toxic
chemicals were present in any body residue of either player.

“No Russians were present white the chemical and electronic analyses
were being made, but Donald Schultz of the United States delegation
was on hand.”

[NOTE] I have just confirmed with Don Schultz that he had no idea,
until I just told him, that Fischer, Cramer and myself had, in fact,
been in the playing hall in the middle of the night.

[NOTE] Nobody else believed it either. Even some of the Russians
thought it was funny. The same article in The New York Times
continued:

“Laughter In the Hall

As soon as the statement was circulated, there was unbelieving
laughter in Exhibition Hall.

"It's .funny!" said Svetozar Gligoric, grandmaster of Yugoslavia,
about it. From the American side, he said, "we have had fantastic
things, so why not from this side also?” He added that as yet he had
no time to study the Russian charges.

“An official of the Icelandic Chess Federation said after the game was
over that as a result of the Soviet charges, guards would be places
back-stage and on the stage during the night, and that specialists
would be asked to investigate the charges.”


On August 27, 1972, the New York Times published an editorial-type
article entitled, “Fischer vs. Spassky: Who Killed Those Two Flies -
And Why?”

REYKJAVIK-The most bizarre episode in this most bizarre of chess
matches was enacted last week with the Case of the Two Dead Flies.

On Tuesday, the Russian delegation issued a statement accusing the
Americans in general and Bobby Fischer in particular of using chemical
and electronic means to overpower Boris Spassky. In effect, the
Russians said, the hall was Bobby-trapped.

Why, they asked, had Fischer put in his own lighting? Why did Fischer
always insist on using his own chair?

What were the Americans doing so often in Exhibition Hail at the dead
of night, when all honest, respectable chess players should be in bed
dreaming happily of the Exchange Variation of the Ruy Lopez?

Everybody thought that the Russian charge was the funniest thing they
had heard. Even the Russians went around with repressed grins. The
suave and elegant Ivo Nei, Spassky's trainer, pretended that he had
not seen the statement. Efim Geller, Spassky's second, had signed the
statement, but he was no-where to be seen. In any case, nobody here
believed he was the author.

It had to come from Moscow, where the bureaucracy was preparing the
Soviet public for a Spassky defeat.

But so spectacular an allegation of cheating and trickery could not be
dismissed out of hand by the organizers of the match. Straight-faced,
the Icelandic Chess Federation brought in a chemist and an electronics
engineer. The lighting was immediately inspected.

All that could be found in the works was two dead flies. Wags said
that the flies should be dissected. Did they die a natural death? Or
had an American death ray put an end to them? Or was their death a
result of tasting the Poisoned Pawn Sicilian?

Spassky's chair was X-rayed. A foreign body turned up in the picture.
Aha! The chair was field-stripped, prodded, unglued, dismembered but
nothing was found except a variation in the wood of the seat where
filler had been used.

Fischer's chair was then X-rayed. There were no dead flies in it but
neither was there any electronic equipment hooked up to a computer in
New York.

The chemist was busy. If Spassky was being chemically manipulated, the
chemicals could enter his, body via food, drink, through the air, or
by injection through the skin. Air samples were tested. Negative.
Scrapings were taken from both chairs and analyzed by gas
chromatography. Negative.

The idea of penetration through Spassky's skin was Clearly
impractical. Nor was his food analyzed. Spassky, since his wife
arrived in Iceland, has been coming to the stage in Exhibition
Hall ,clutching two thermos jugs. The investigating commission did not
believe Spassky's wife would drug his tea.

In one fell swoop the Russians had undercut all the sympathy that had
been built up by Spassky. Everybody admires the champion. He is a
gentleman, a true sportsman who has consistently acted with grace
under pressure. Now he has been associated with an effort to find an
excuse-in most people's opinion a preposterous excuse-for his being
outplayed by Fischer. The statement was none of Spassky's doing, but
Icelanders were saying that the Russians were poor losers.

Submerged in the furor over chemical and electronic cheating was a
paragraph in the Russian statement that accused Fischer of
unsportsmanlike conduct. Fischer's numerous whims, his constant
demands, his late arrivals at games, his protests, his requests for a
private room-all - this, said the statement, has been "deliberately
aimed at exercising pressure on the opponent, unbalancing Mr. B.
Spassky and making him lose his fighting spirit."

There the Russians may have had a point. Certainly the conduct of the
American during the match, which after last week's play Fischer led by
10 1/2 games to 7 1/2, has been open in many ways to serious question.
But with the wild and unfounded allegations of chemical and electronic
cheating, the Russians had spoiled their case.

HAR0LD C. SCHONBERG
Published: August 27, 1972
Copyright © The New York Times
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