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Old March 28th 10, 06:36 PM posted to soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval,soc.culture.italian,rec.games.chess.politics,soc.history
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Default Marco Polo The Description of the World by A. C. Moule and PaulPelliot

Marco Polo
The Description of the World
by A. C. Moule and Paul Pelliot

Foreword by Sam Sloan

This is by far the most complete and most authoritative translation of
the work of Marco Polo. It is based on a manuscript found in the
Catedral de Toledo where it had lain forgotten for 130 years. That
manuscript written in 1795 was in turn based on a manuscript written
in about 1300 at the time when Marco Polo himself was hiding in that
cathedral as a fugitive in fear of his life.

The manuscript in Cathedral de Toledo is in Latin. Arthur Christopher
Moule painstakingly transcribed it into type written text. He was so
careful to be faithful to the original that he even transcribed
meaningless punctuation marks. The Latin text was published as Volume
2 in 1935, even though it was published first.

Then, A. C. Moule went to work translating the Latin into English.
Here he gives credit to his predecessors, Ramusio in 1557 and Sir
Henry Yule in 1903. He was gratified when his translations often came
out the same as theirs.

He was careful to note the differences. Every word that is different
from the words of Ramusio or Yule is put in italics. In addition,
there is a chart showing where the page numbers to this work are
different from the page numbers of the other translations. Thus, a
reader looking at a page of this book can quickly find the equivalent
page in the Yule work.

There were originally supposed to be four volumes to this work. The
last two were to include photographs. These volumes were to be
prepared by Paul Pelliot, an adventurer, explorer and Sinologist .
However, Paul Pelliot died in 1945 without ever completing his work,
so the first two volumes were the only volumes ever published. It
seems likely that a partial manuscript survives today because in the
two volumes that were published there are references to the page
numbers that were supposed to appear in the subsequent volumes.

It is important to notice the Latin original text, even among those of
us who do not know Latin. This is because we need to know for sure
exactly where Marco Polo visited. Here is an example: Most books say
that Marco Polo visited Kublai Khan in his Imperial Palace in Beijing.
However, the word Beijing does not appear in the book and the man
Marco Polo met is only called The Great Kaan. Thus, it is not
certain that the place Marco Polo visited was the modern-day Beijing
or that the man he met there was Kublai Khan.

On page 212 of the Moule translation, Marco Polo describes a great
city named Cambaluc, that was built by The Great Kaan. This city
sounds like the modern Forbidden City in Beijing. However, the
Forbidden City was built mostly in the 16th Century. Marco Polo was
there three hundred years earlier. In all probability something
similar to the Forbidden City was already there in his time and in the
same place, even though there is no other modern record of it.

There have always been doubts as to whether Marco Polo actually
visited all the places that he wrote about. However, I have personally
visited almost every place along the route that Marco Polo took. Since
I have been to all these places, I can easily recognize the places
that Marco Polo describes. For example, while crossing the Pamirs,
Polo describes large hairy animals. He calls them wild sheep with
horns six palms in length. I have been there and I have seen these
animals. We call them yaks.

Marco Polo says that when reaching the top of the Pamirs there is a
large lake. The lake is there. Nobody would expect to find such a
large lake at such a high altitude.

Of particular interest to me is a paragraph on Page 139 in the Yule
version:

"Of the Province of Pashai

"You must know that ten days' journey to the south of Badashan there
is a Province called PASHAI, the people of which have a peculiar
language, and are Idolaters, of a brown complexion. They are great
adepts in sorceries and the diabolic arts. The men wear earrings and
brooches of gold and silver set with stones and pearls. They are a
pestilent people and a crafty; and they live upon flesh and rice.
Their country is very hot.

It is fairly obvious that the places he is referring to are Badakhshan
and Chitral. According to Henry Yule's 1903 translation, Marco Polo
could have visited these places by crossing the Dorah Pass from
Badakhshan to Chitral and then crossing Lowari Top from Chitral to Dir
and Kashmir, and then returning the same way and proceeding onward to
China. Sir Henry Yule and his annotator Henri Cordier think that
Pashai as described by Marco Polo includes all of Chitral and the
entire area south of the Hindu Kush down to India.

However, another possibility that Henry Yule suggests is that Marco
Polo did not himself visit these places but merely heard about them
from other travelers.

In the version by A. C. Moule which is the subject of this book, there
are several significant changes. Some of the place names are spelled
differently. Pashai in the Yule version is spelled Pasciai in the
Moule version. Keshimur in the Yule version is spelled Chescemir in
the Moule version. Since Moule states that he copied the spellings
exactly from the original by Marco Polo in Latin, what has happened
here is Yule changed the spellings to conform to the modern spelling
of these places. Both Keshimur and Chescemir obviously refer to
Kashmir, the mountainous area of Northern India and North Eastern
Pakistan.

The Pashai Language is spoken today by people living on the border
between what is now Pakistan and Afghanistan at the point where the
Kunar River splits into two branches; one goes into Chitral Pakistan,
the other into Nuristan. The towns of Barikot and Arandu speak Pashai.
(Needless to say, I have been to both of these places.) Pashai
probably denoted a much larger area in the time of Marco Polo.

Places often keep their names for long periods of time, thousands of
years. However, the names by which outsiders know their names may
change more rapidly. For example, the country we know as Hungary has
the capital at Budapest. However, the people living there call their
country Magyar.

The area we call Nuristan was known as Kafirstan prior to 1895 when it
was conquered by King Abdul Rehman of Afghanistan, but the people
there never called their own country Kafirstan. Thus, the Province
of Pasciai could easily refer to Nuristan or to Chitral.

Here is the more recent translation by A. C. Moule:

HERE HE TELLS OF THE GREAT PROVINCE OF PASCIAI. It is true that a good
ten days journeys distant from Badascian towards midday is a province
which is called Pasciai, and they have a language for themselves. And
all the people of the province are idolaters who worship the idols,
and they are dark people. And they know much of enchantments and of
the diabolical arts, spending time in the invocation of demons. And
here the men wear hung in their ears rings and buckles of gold and of
silver and of pearls, and of precious stones enough according to their
means worked with great skill. And they are very malicious people and
cunning and cruel and clever in their customs. And this province is to
a very hot place. Their food is nothing but flesh and rice and spices;
whence the vice of sensuality reigns in such a manner as I will not
write.

Note: This last clause, the vice of sensuality reigns in such a
manner as I will not write, is from a text published in Venice Italy
in 1496.

You will note several important differences between the Yule
translation and the Moule translation. First, Yule spells the name of
the place PASHAI whereas Moule spells it PASCIAI. Pashai is a place
name today. The Pashai Language is spoken by people living on the
border between what is now Pakistan and Afghanistan at the point where
the Kunar River splits into two branches, one goes into Chitral
Pakistan, the other into Nuristan. The towns of Barikot and Arandu
speak Pashai. (Needless to say, I have been to both of these places.)
Pashai probably denoted a much larger area in the time of Marco Polo.

Another difference is that Yule says that the Pashai people have a
brown complexion. However, from the translation by Moule it is clear
that it is not their skin that is black. Rather, they practice the
Black Arts, such as Black Magic. The actual Pashai people are very
fair-skinned and beautiful. (I have seen many of them myself.)

Another difference is that Moule writes that to reach this place one
must travel a good ten days journeys distant from Badascian towards
midday. In the Northern Hemisphere at noon time, the midday sun
appears to be the south, whereas in the morning it is to the East.
This tells us how Marco Polo got around. It was a fortunate
coincidence that by following in the direction of the morning sun,
that is by going due East, one could directly cross the top of the
Pamirs and through the passes to reach China.

Sir Henry Yule simplified this by translating this passage to read
ten days' journey to the south of Badashan there is a Province called
PASHAI. This is accurate. If one walks today from the capital of
Badakhshan, then crosses the Durah Pass to Chitral and then walks down
the river to Arandu, one arrives there in just about exactly ten days.

The Kalash Kafirs, a tribe of 3,000 that is still in Chitral, are
known as the Shia Posh Kafirs which means Black Robed Kafirs,
because their women wear black robes. Here again, the reference to the
color Black in the Moule translation may refer to their manner of
dress rather than to the color of their skin.

I am especially interested in this passage because I actually married
one of them and I have a child by her (although the one I married had
supposedly been converted to Islam generations earlier) and the
practice of Black Magic and other characterizations describe her
exactly.

The Chitralis say that they were all Kafirs at one time. Islam arrived
in Chitral from the north through Baroghol Pass around Marco Polo's
time, spreading south for hundreds of years until finally there was a
battle at Reshun between the King of the Kalash and the Muslims. The
forces of the King of the Kalash were defeated and after that Islam
spread down to most of Chitral. All this happened centuries after
Marco Polo. Nowadays almost all of Chitral is Muslim although there
are rumors and reports that some of those supposedly converted to
Islam are still secretly practicing their old Kalash Religion. The
girls especially like their Kalash religion, because they can walk
around freely, whereas the Muslim women are kept locked inside their
houses.

The history of Chitral says that all of Chitral south of Reshun, which
is 35 miles north of Chitral proper, was at one time Kalash, until the
Muslims came down from Upper Chitral and conquered the area a few
hundred years ago. The people in Lower Chitral were then all forced to
convert from Kalash to Islam. The last Kalash king was Rajaway in the
14th century.

The other question is whether Marco Polo actually entered Chitral and
Kashmir or did he write about these places based on what other
travelers told him. In several places, Marco Polo writes with accuracy
about places he never visited. For example, he accurately describes
the African islands of Madagascar and Zanzibar even though those
islands were unknown to Europe at that time and did not become known
to Europeans until hundreds of years after Marco Polo lived.

The consensus is that Marco Polo did not actually visit Chitral and
Kashmir. However, if he did go there he would have crossed into
Chitral by the Durah Pass from Badakhshan and then by the Lowari Pass
he would have left Chitral and then arriving at Dir could have crossed
to Kashmir.

Marco Polo also says, about the people of Pashai, the vice of
sensuality reigns in such a manner as I will not write.

As indeed it does. The Kalash today have the Festival of the Budulak.
In this festival, a strong boy is sent up into the mountains to live
with the goats for the summer. He is supposed to get fat and strong
from goat milk. When the festival comes he is allowed for a 24-hour
period only to have sexual intercourse with any woman he wants,
including even the wife of another man, a young virgin or his own
sister or mother if he wants her. Any child born of this 24-hour
sexual rampage is considered to be blessed.

Thus, we can say with great confidence that Marco Polo did actually
visit all these places or if he did not he learned about them from
other travelers who had been there. It would be virtually impossible
for anybody to invent such stories and still be accurate on so many
details as Marco Polo was.

Here I must say something about the extreme rarity of this book. It
was published in its current form in the relatively recent date of
1938. As such it should be readily available from many sources. Yet,
it was almost impossible to find. None were available for sale online.
According to worldcat.net only one Library in the World had it. That
was the Swedish National Library in Stockholm.

Then suddenly a copy appeared by a rare book dealer in Johannesburg,
South Africa for sale for the high price of $750. I quickly placed a
long distance telephone call to South Africa only to find out that the
book had already been sold immediately after it had been listed.

Many libraries reported that they at least had the 1976 reprint.
However, when I went to those libraries, none of them had it. Instead,
they had another book about Marco Polo.

I can only surmise that this 1938 volume must have been published in a
short press run or else the book is in such high demand that nobody is
willing to part with theirs, for any price.

I found one in the New York Public Library, but it is not listed in
the general index and was not available on site. I finally got to see
it, but they would not copy it for me as they only copy books before
1923, as current copyright law does not extend before that date.

A. C. Moule in his introduction describes and acknowledges many people
as though they lived yesterday who have worked on this Marco Polo book
over the centuries. He mentions one man who worked on it for 52 years
and then died without the results of his research having ever been
published and without his children ever learning what their father had
been working on all those years. At least the photograph of that man
was supposed to appear in Volume 3 by Paul Pelliot, but then Paul
Pelliot died without Volume 3 ever being published.

Thus, I almost feel that I am cheating all those long dead people by
being able to publish this book through modern technology after
working on it for only a few weeks, where as others worked on it for
years without success.

Sam Sloan

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...SBN=4871873080
http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871873080

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...SBN=4871873099
http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871873099

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Old March 28th 10, 08:33 PM posted to soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval,soc.culture.italian,rec.games.chess.politics,soc.history
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First recorded activity by ChessBanter: Mar 2010
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Default Marco Polo The Description of the World by A. C. Moule and PaulPelliot

On Mar 28, 1:36*pm, samsloan wrote:
Marco Polo
The Description of the World
by A. C. Moule and Paul Pelliot

Foreword by Sam Sloan


It is important to notice the Latin original text, even among those of
us who do not know Latin. This is because we need to know for sure
exactly where Marco Polo visited. Here is an example: Most books say
that Marco Polo visited Kublai Khan in his Imperial Palace in Beijing.
However, the word Beijing does not appear in the book and the man


that's because the name "Beijing" hadn't been invented yet at the
time!

Marco Polo met is only called “The Great Kaan”. Thus, it is not
certain that the place Marco Polo visited was the modern-day Beijing
or that the man he met there was Kublai Khan.

On page 212 of the Moule translation, Marco Polo describes a great
city named Cambaluc, that was built by The Great Kaan. This city
sounds like the modern “Forbidden City” in Beijing. However, the


no, it sounds like the Turkic name of the city, Khan Balïq meaning
"city of the Khan". Marco Polo first learned Cuman Turkic while he was
a trader amongst the Cumans. that's why many of his names agree with
Turkic or Western Mongolian usage. the transcription of Chinese names
in Rashiduddin (who sarted out with the Ilkhan Ghazan Khan) agree with
those in Marco Polo, according to Thackston, who did a translation of
Rashiduddin.

Forbidden City was built mostly in the 16th Century. Marco Polo was
there three hundred years earlier. In all probability something
similar to the Forbidden City was already there in his time and in the
same place, even though there is no other modern record of it.


here is some information from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Beijing

Liao and Jin Dynasties


Though Beijing was but a peripheral city to Chinese dynasties centered
in Luoyang and Xi'an, it was to the nomads, an important entryway into
China. The city's stature grew from the 10th Century with successive
invasions of China by Khitan, Jurchen and Mongols. In 938, the
ascendant Khitan having unified the steppes founded the Liao Dynasty.
[15] It elevated Youzhou to be one of its four secondary capitals,
renaming it Nanjing (南京) or the "Southern Capital". Thus, the City of
Ji, ceded to the Liao as Youzhou, continued as Nanjing in what is
today the southwest part of urban Beijing. ...

....

While the Liao kept the Song dynasty out of northern China, it could
not stop a more powerful nomadic tribe from further north. The
Jurchens, from present-day Manchuria, swept south, drove the Liao to
Central Asia, and founded the Jin (金) Dynasty in 1125. The Jin
initially named the Liao's southern capital, Yanjing, but in 1153, Jin
Emperor Wanyan Liang moved his capital from Shangjing (near present-
day Harbin) to the city, which was renamed Zhongdu (*都) or the
"Central Capital."[9] For the first time in its history, the city of
Beijing became a political capital of a major dynasty.

Yuan Dynasty
Main article: Khanbaliq

The White Dagoba on Qionghua Island in the Beihai Park, one of the
earliest imperial gardens in Beijing. On his first visit to Beijing in
1261, Kublai Khan stayed on this island. He liked the surroundings and
ordered that the new capital to be built around the island.In 1215,
the tenth year of the reign of Genghis Khan, Mongol forces sacked
Zhongdu, which was again named Yanjing. Just as the Jurchens had risen
from the steppes and displaced the Khitan Liao, so too had the Mongols
who emerged out of southern Siberia and destroyed the Jurchen Jin in
1234. Much of the old Zhongdu, including the imperial palace, lay in
ruin when Kublai Khan visited the city for the first time in 1261.[21]
He stayed in the Taining Palace located on Qionghua Island in the
Gaoliang River northeast of Zhongdu.[22] The palace was built by the
Jin in in 1179 as a country retreat, much like the later Summer Palace
of the Qing.[23] Unlike other Mongol leaders who wanted to retain the
traditional tribal confederation based in Karakorum, Kublai Khan was
eager to become the emperor of a cosmopolitan empire. He spent the
next four years waging and winning a civil war against rival Mongol
chieftains, and in 1264 ordered advisor Liu Bingzhong to build his new
capital at Yanjing. In 1260, he had already begun construction of his
capital at Xanadu, some 275 km due north of Beijing on the Luan River
in present-day Inner Mongolia, but he preferred the location of
Beijing. With the North China Plain opening to the south and the
steppes just beyond the mountain passes to the north, Beijing was an
ideal midway point for Kublai Khan's new seat of power. In 1271, he
declared the creation of the Yuan Dynasty and named his capital Dadu (大
都, Chinese for "Grand Capital",[1] or Daidu to the Mongols[24]). It is
also known by the Mongol name Khanbaliq (汗八里), spelled Cambuluc in
Marco Polo's accounts. After the construction of Dadu, Xanadu, also
known as Shangdu, became Kublai Khan's summer capital.


Map of Dadu showing the outer city walls (black) and imperial city
(red), partial outline of Zhongdu (dashed green) and the extent of the
Ming-Qing city (grey). The Gaoliang River was made into a string of
lakes and drained by the Tonghui Channel to the south.
The Beijing Drum Tower, first built in 1272, marked the geographic
center of Dadu. Di'anmen Avenue still forms part of the city's north-
south central axis.Rather than continuing on the foundation of
Zhongdu, the new capital Dadu was shifted to the northeast and built
around the old Taining Palace on Qionghua Island in the middle of the
Gaoliang River. This move set in place Beijing's current north-south
central axis. Dadu was nearly twice the size of Zhongdu....

....

Ming Dynasty

The Yongle Emperor moved the capital of the Ming Dynasty from Nanjing
to Beijing in 1421. He commissioned the Forbidden City, which was
built from 1406 to 1420.
The Beijing Palace City Scroll, depicting the Forbidden City, 15th
century.In 1368, Zhu Yuanzhang founded the Ming Dynasty in Nanjing and
his general Xu Da captured Dadu. The last Yuan court fled to Shangdu
and the city of Beijing returned to Chinese for the first time since
936 A.D. The Yuan imperial palace was razed and the city was renamed
Beiping (北平 or "Northern Peace").[35] Nanjing, also known as Yingtian
Fu became the Jingshi or the capital of the new dynasty. Two years
later, the founding Hongwu Emperor, conferred Beiping to his fourth
son, Zhu Di, who at the age of ten became the Prince of Yan. Zhu Di
did not move to Beiping until 1370 but quickly built up his military
power in defense of the northern frontier. The Hongwu Emperor was
predeceased by his three eldest sons, and when he died in 1398, the
throne was passed down to Zhu Yunwen, the heir of his crown prince.
The new emperor sought to curtail his uncle's power in Beiping, and a
bitter power struggle ensued. In 1402, after a four year civil war,
Zhu Di seized Nanjing and declared himself the Yongle Emperor. As the
third emperor of the Ming Dynasty, he was not content to stay in
Nanjing. He executed hundreds in Nanjing for remaining loyal to his
predecessor, who was reportedly killed in a palace fire but was
rumored to have escaped. The Yongle Emperor sent his enunch Zheng He
on the famed voyages overseas in part to investigate the rumors of the
Jianwen Emperor abroad.

In 1403, the Yongle Emperor renamed his home base, Beijing, (北京, or
the "Northern Capital") and elevated the city to the status of
centrally-administered city, on par with Nanjing. For the first time,
Beijing took on its modern name, though it was also known as Shuntian
Fu (顺天府). From 1403 to 1421, Yongle prepared Beijing to be his new
capital with a massive reconstruction program. Most Beijing's most
iconic historical buildings today, including the Forbidden City and
the Temple of Heaven, were built for Yongle's capital. In 1421, Yongle
moved the Jingshi of the Ming to Beijing, which made Beijing the main
capital of the Ming dynasty. The move to the north also enabled the
Ming regime to pay closer heed to the defense of the north against the
Mongols. Most of the Great Wall in northern Beijing Municipality were
built during the Ming Dynasty.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing

Names
"Beijing" means "northern capital", in line with the common East Asian
tradition whereby capital cities are explicitly named as such. Other
cities that are similarly named include Nanjing, China, meaning
"southern capital"; Tokyo, Japan, and Đông Kinh, now Hanoi, Vietnam,
both meaning "eastern capital"; as well as Kyoto, Japan, and
Gyeongseong (京城; now Seoul), Korea, both meaning simply "capital".

Peking is the name of the city according to Chinese Postal Map
Romanization, and the traditional customary name for Beijing in
English. The term Peking originated with French missionaries four
hundred years ago and corresponds to an older pronunciation predating
a subsequent sound change in Mandarin from [kʲ] to [tɕ][14] ([tɕ] is
represented in pinyin as j, as in Beijing). It is still used in many
languages. However in recent decades popular use has moved away from
using the Peking variant and most Western maps now show Beijing.

The pronunciation "Peking" is also closer to the Fujianese dialect of
Amoy or Min Nan spoken in the city of Xiamen, a port where European
traders first landed in the 16th century, while "Beijing" more closely
approximates the Mandarin dialect's pronunciation.[15]

The city has been renamed several times. During the Jin Dynasty, the
city was known as Zhongdu (*都) , and then later under the Mongol Yuan
Dynasty as Dadu (大都) in Chinese[16] and Daidu to Mongols[17] (also
recorded as Cambuluc[6] by Marco Polo). Twice in the city's history,
the name was changed from Beijing (Peking) to Beiping (Peiping) (北平
Pinyin: Beiping; Wade-Giles: Pei-p'ing), literally "Northern Peace".
This occurred first under the Hongwu Emperor of the Ming Dynasty, and
again in 1928 with the Kuomintang (KMT) government of the Republic of
China.[6] On each occasion, the name change removed the element
meaning "capital" (jing or king, Chinese: 京) to reflect the fact the
national capital had changed to Nanjing. The city's name was also
twice changed from Beiping (Peiping) to Beijing (Peking). This
occurred first under the Yongle Emperor of the Ming Dynasty, who moved
the capital from Nanjing back to Beijing, and again in 1949, when the
Communist Party of China restored Beijing as China's capital after the
founding of the People's Republic of China.[6]


History



.... In 1403, the new (and third) Ming emperor - the Yongle Emperor -
renamed this city 'Beijing',[24] and designated Beijing the co-capital
alongside the (then) current capital of Nanjing. Beijing was the
subject of a major construction project for a new Imperial residence,
the Forbidden City that lasted nearly 15 years (1406 to 1420).[20]
When the palace was finished, the Yongle Emperor ceremoniously took up
residence. From 1421 onwards, Beijing, also known as Jingshi (京师),[24]
was the "official" capital of the Ming Dynasty while Nanjing was
demoted to the status of "secondary" capital. This system of dual
capitals (with Beijing being vastly more important) continued for the
duration of the Ming Dynasty. ...


Republican era

The Xinhai Revolution of 1911, aimed at replacing Qing rule with a
republic, originally intended to establish its capital at Nanjing.
After high-ranking Qing official Yuan Shikai forced the abdication of
the Qing emperor in Beijing and ensured the success of the revolution,
the revolutionaries in Nanjing accepted that Yuan should be the
president of the new Republic of China and the capital remains at
Beijing. Yuan gradually consolidated power and became by 1915 the new
emperor of China, but died less than a year into his reign.[34] China
then fell under the control of regional warlords, and the most
powerful factions fought frequent wars (the Zhili-Anhui War, the First
Zhili-Fengtian War, and the Second Zhili-Fengtian War) to take control
of the capital at Beijing. Following the success of the Kuomintang
(KMT)'s Northern Expedition, which pacified the warlords of the north,
Nanjing was officially made the capital of the Republic of China in
1928, and Beijing was renamed Beiping (Peip'ing) (北平) on 28 June that
year,[35] in English meaning "northern peace" or "north pacified".[6]
During the Second Sino-Japanese War,[6] Beiping fell to Japan on 29
July 1937,[36] and was made the seat of the Provisional Government of
the Republic of China, a puppet state that ruled the ethnic Chinese
portions of Japanese-occupied northern China;[37] the government was
later merged into the larger Wang Jingwei Government based in Nanjing.
[38]

People's Republic

Mao Zedong proclaiming the establishment of the People's Republic of
China in 1949On 31 January 1949, during the Chinese Civil War,
Communist forces entered Beijing without a fight. On 1 October of the
same year, the Communist Party of China, under the leadership of Mao
Zedong, announced in Tiananmen the creation of the People's Republic
of China and renamed the city back to Beijing.[39] Just a few days
earlier, the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference had
decided that Beijing would be the capital of the new government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanbaliq

Khanbaliq

Khanbaliq or Dadu refers to a city which is now Beijing, the current
capital of the People's Republic of China. The city was called Dadu or
Tatu (大都, pinyin: D*dū, Wade-Giles: Ta-tu), meaning "great capital" or
"grand capital" in Chinese, the name for the capital of the Yuan
Dynasty founded by Kublai Khan in China, and was called Daidu by the
Mongols,[1] which was a transliteration directly from the Chinese.[2]
It is known as Khanbaliq (汗八里),[3] also spelled as Khanbalikh[4] in
Turkic languages, meaning "Great residence of the Khan", and Marco
Polo wrote of it as Cambaluc, Cambuluc, or Kanbalu.

History

The layout of the city of Dadu.Under the name Zhongdu (*都, "central
capital", pinyin: Zhōngdū) the city had earlier served as the capital
of the Jin Dynasty, but was burned down in 1215 by Mongol forces. In
1264, in preparation to establish the Yuan Dynasty, Kublai Khan
decided to rebuild this city as his new capital. Liu Bingzhong was
appointed as the supervisor of its construction, and one of the main
people who designed and led the construction was Yeheidie'erding (Amir
al-Din).[5] The construction of the walls of the city began in the
same year, while the imperial palace was built from 1274 onwards. ...





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Old March 28th 10, 08:43 PM posted to soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval,soc.culture.italian,rec.games.chess.politics,soc.history
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Default Marco Polo The Description of the World by A. C. Moule and PaulPelliot

On Mar 28, 1:36*pm, samsloan wrote:
Marco Polo
The Description of the World
by A. C. Moule and Paul Pelliot

Foreword by Sam Sloan


Places often keep their names for long periods of time, thousands of
years. However, the names by which outsiders know their names may
change more rapidly. For example, the country we know as Hungary has
the capital at Budapest. However, the people living there call their
country Magyar.


"Hungary" comes from Bulghar-Turkic On-Oghur "Ten Oghur" (Common
Turkic has the tribal name Oghuz, a distinguishing sound change
between the two wings of Turkic), a tribal confederation that was led
by Bulghar-Turkic tribes, but whose main component was the Finno-Ugric
(Uralic) Magyar people.
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Old March 28th 10, 11:15 PM posted to soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval,soc.culture.italian,rec.games.chess.politics,soc.history
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Default Marco Polo The Description of the World by A. C. Moule and PaulPelliot

samsloan wrote:
Marco Polo
The Description of the World
by A. C. Moule and Paul Pelliot

Foreword by Sam Sloan

This is by far the most complete and most authoritative translation of
the work of Marco Polo. It is based on a manuscript found in the
Catedral de Toledo where it had lain forgotten for 130 years. That
manuscript written in 1795 was in turn based on a manuscript written
in about 1300 at the time when Marco Polo himself was hiding in that
cathedral as a fugitive in fear of his life.

The manuscript in Cathedral de Toledo is in Latin. Arthur Christopher
Moule painstakingly transcribed it into type written text. He was so
careful to be faithful to the original that he even transcribed
meaningless punctuation marks. The Latin text was published as Volume
2 in 1935, even though it was published first.


No such thing as "meaningless" punctuation marks in a manuscript. A
good editor will ALWAYS make a transcription of EVERYTHING on the
manuscript page because it all has meaning....it may or may not have
meaning in terms of translating the text, but that's a slightly
different issue. Anyway, no great revelation here other than that Moule
was a good scholar--but we knew that.

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Old March 29th 10, 12:26 AM posted to soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval,soc.culture.italian,rec.games.chess.politics,soc.history
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Default Marco Polo The Description of the World by A. C. Moule and PaulPelliot

On Mar 28, 3:33*pm, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
On Mar 28, 1:36*pm, samsloan wrote:

Marco Polo
The Description of the World
by A. C. Moule and Paul Pelliot


Foreword by Sam Sloan


It is important to notice the Latin original text, even among those of
us who do not know Latin. This is because we need to know for sure
exactly where Marco Polo visited. Here is an example: Most books say
that Marco Polo visited Kublai Khan in his Imperial Palace in Beijing.
However, the word Beijing does not appear in the book and the man


that's because the name "Beijing" hadn't been invented yet at the
time!

Marco Polo met is only called The Great Kaan. Thus, it is not
certain that the place Marco Polo visited was the modern-day Beijing
or that the man he met there was Kublai Khan.


On page 212 of the Moule translation, Marco Polo describes a great
city named Cambaluc, that was built by The Great Kaan. This city
sounds like the modern Forbidden City in Beijing. However, the


no, it sounds like the Turkic name of the city, Khan Balq meaning
"city of the Khan". Marco Polo first learned Cuman Turkic while he was
a trader amongst the Cumans. that's why many of his names agree with
Turkic or Western Mongolian usage. the transcription of Chinese names
in Rashiduddin (who sarted out with the Ilkhan Ghazan Khan) agree with
those in Marco Polo, according to Thackston, who did a translation of
Rashiduddin.

Thank you. You have made several good and helpful points.

When I wrote "This city sounds like the modern Forbidden City in
Beijing" what I meant to say that from the way it is described it is
similar to the Forbidden City. On pages 213 of the Moule translation
it says that the city was built to be exactly square, six miles on
each side so that it is 24 miles all the way around.

I spent several hours walking around the Forbidden City in Beijing in
September and I believe that it is exactly square but it is certainly
much smaller than six miles on each side.

Sam Sloan


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Old April 17th 10, 12:39 AM posted to soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval,soc.culture.china,rec.games.chess.politics,soc.history
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Default Marco Polo The Description of the World by A. C. Moule and PaulPelliot

The Marco Polo book is out now, in both English and the Original
Latin.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...SBN=4871873099
http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871873080

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...SBN=4871873099
http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871873099

Marco Polo wrote this book in the year 1298. He was the first Western
man to visit China. Everybody in America has heard of Marco Polo. He
is one of the most famous men in history.

A big question is exactly where did Marco Polo go. He uses different
names for many of the cities he visited. We can see that he visited
Beijing. He calls the place CAMBALUC. You can see this on page 229 of
the large book and many other places. This name has been translated by
others as KHAN-BALIK, which is pronounced almost the same way, but has
different spelling. He describes the construction of that city on page
207-208 and this seems to be an accurate description of the Imperial
City in Beijing.

What you can do that would be of great benefit would be if you can
decide if Marco Polo ever went to Shenyang. He writes about many
cities of China. It seems clear that he did visit Shanghai and
Guangzhou, but nobody is sure whether he visited Shenyang or not.

Sam Sloan
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Old April 17th 10, 07:40 AM posted to soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval,soc.culture.china,rec.games.chess.politics,soc.history
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Default Marco Polo The Description of the World by A. C. Moule and PaulPelliot

On Apr 16, 7:39 pm, samsloan wrote:
The Marco Polo book is out now, in both English and the Original
Latin.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo.../dp/4871873080

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo.../dp/4871873099

Marco Polo wrote this book in the year 1298. He was the first Western
man to visit China. Everybody in America has heard of Marco Polo. He
is one of the most famous men in history.

A big question is exactly where did Marco Polo go. He uses different
names for many of the cities he visited. We can see that he visited
Beijing. He calls the place CAMBALUC. You can see this on page 229 of
the large book and many other places. This name has been translated by
others as KHAN-BALIK, which is pronounced almost the same way, but has


that's the original Turkic form: *kh*a:n balïq . /ï/ (unround closed
back vowel) being pronounced a little further back than the Slavic y
in Cyrllic: ы . this is lacking in Latin and most Romance languages
(Portuguese and Romanian have something similar), so Marco Polo chose /
u/ (rounded closed back vowel). *kh* (German or Scottish ch as in
ach, loch) is similarly lacking in Medieval Latin. *kh* is a rare
sound in most Turkic dialects of the period. *kh*a:n is a royal title
and balïq is city in Middle Turkic. it exists now as balïq or paluq in
Sary Yughur (China) and as paluq "village in Khalaj (both peripheral
Turkic languages preserving archaicisms). *kh*a:n was pronounced as
ga:n / *gh*a:n in Eastern Middle Mongolian (that was spoken by the
Mongols in China). balïq "city" was bala*gh*asun / bal*gh*asun /
balgasun in the Eastern Middle Mongolian. as I said, Marco Polo was a
trader among the Turkic Comans before his travels, so he tends to use
Turkic or Western Mongolian forms. so *kh*a:n balïq means "City of
Khan" or "Khan City". I had explained this before.


different spelling. He describes the construction of that city on page
207-208 and this seems to be an accurate description of the Imperial
City in Beijing.

What you can do that would be of great benefit would be if you can
decide if Marco Polo ever went to Shenyang. He writes about many
cities of China. It seems clear that he did visit Shanghai and
Guangzhou, but nobody is sure whether he visited Shenyang or not.

Sam Sloan


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Old April 17th 10, 09:32 AM posted to soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval,soc.culture.china,rec.games.chess.politics,soc.history
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Default Marco Polo The Description of the World by A. C. Moule and PaulPelliot

On Apr 17, 2:40*am, Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
On Apr 16, 7:39 pm, samsloan wrote:



The Marco Polo book is out now, in both English and the Original
Latin.


http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...SBN=4871873080


http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...SBN=4871873099


Marco Polo wrote this book in the year 1298. He was the first Western
man to visit China. Everybody in America has heard of Marco Polo. He
is one of the most famous men in history.


A big question is exactly where did Marco Polo go. He uses different
names for many of the cities he visited. We can see that he visited
Beijing. He calls the place CAMBALUC. You can see this on page 229 of
the large book and many other places. This name has been translated by
others as KHAN-BALIK, which is pronounced almost the same way, but has


that's the original Turkic form: *kh*a:n balïq . /ï/ (unround closed
back vowel) being pronounced a little further back than the Slavic y
in Cyrllic: ы . this is lacking in Latin and most Romance languages
(Portuguese and Romanian have something similar), so Marco Polo chose /
u/ (rounded closed back vowel). *kh* (German or Scottish ch as in
ach, loch) is similarly lacking in Medieval Latin. *kh* is a rare
sound in most Turkic dialects of the period. *kh*a:n is a royal title
and balïq is city in Middle Turkic. it exists now as balïq or paluq in
Sary Yughur (China) and as paluq "village in Khalaj (both peripheral
Turkic languages preserving archaicisms). *kh*a:n was pronounced as
ga:n / *gh*a:n in Eastern Middle Mongolian (that was spoken by the
Mongols in China). balïq "city" was bala*gh*asun / bal*gh*asun /
balgasun in the Eastern Middle Mongolian. as I said, Marco Polo was a
trader among the Turkic Comans before his travels, so he tends to use
Turkic or Western Mongolian forms. so *kh*a:n balïq means "City of
Khan" or "Khan City". I had explained this before.


Thank you very much for this useful, interesting and informative
explanation.

However, I have now published the original Latin text of what Marco
Polo wrote and he does not use the /kh/ sound at all. Thus, the /kh/
sound has been added by other translators to the words "Great Khan"
and "Khan Balik".

Here is a example of a sentence in the original text. It is on page
xxiv of the Latin original that I have published.

"Sunt itaque in ciuitate cambalu inter xpistianos saracenos &
cathaycos circa .v.m astrologi & diuinatores quibus magnus can
quolibut ano prouideri facit"

This is translated by A. C. Moule on page 252 as follows:

"There are in the city of Cambaluc about five thousand astrologers and
diviners, between Christians, Saracens and Cathaians, for whom, as for
the aforesaid poor, the great Kaan causes food and clothing to be
provided every year."

So, as you can see, the city we now know as Beijing is cambalu in the
original and the man whom we now know as "Kublai Khan" is "magnus can"
in the original Latin.

It is also interesting that "Christians" is "xpistianos" in the
original Latin.

Sam Sloan

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...SBN=4871873080
http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871873080

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo...SBN=4871873099
http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871873099
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Old April 21st 10, 05:10 AM posted to soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval,soc.culture.china,rec.games.chess.politics,soc.history
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Default Marco Polo The Description of the World by A. C. Moule and PaulPelliot

TheMarcoPolobook is out now, in both English and the Original Latin.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo....asp?ISBN=4871...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871873080

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo....asp?ISBN=4871...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871873099

Here are come corresponding pages:

"Nayan was in his tent dallying in bed with his wife". This is on page
116 of the Google books version.

The A.C. Moule version on page 196 says: "He was with his wife in bed
with her and was enjoying himself greatly with her".

"those who are approved are divided into groups of six , who serve the
Khan for three days and three nights ministering to all his needs and
he uses them according to his pleasure"

This is on page 123 of Google books. The equivalent is on page 206 of
the AC Moule version.

"The city is laid out in squares like a chess board". This is on page
129 of Google books and 213 of AC Moule

Here is a mystery:

"No woman of the world that is who prostitutes her body for money. But
they all live in the suburbs and there are so many of them that no one
could believe it. For I assure you that there are fully 20,000 of
them, all serving the needs of men for money.

This s on page 129 of Google books. However, this entire paragraph is
missing from the AC Moule edition. The paragraph before it in on page
213 of AC Moule. All of page 130 in Google books seems to be missing
from AC Moule. The top of page 214 of AC Moule is the equivalent of
the first long paragraph on page 131 おf Google books.
Any solution to this would be appreciated.

Sam Sloan

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Old April 23rd 10, 08:54 PM posted to soc.genealogy.medieval,soc.history.medieval,soc.culture.china,rec.games.chess.politics,soc.history
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Default Marco Polo The Description of the World by A. C. Moule and PaulPelliot

On Apr 21, 12:10*am, samsloan wrote:
TheMarcoPolobook is out now, in both English and the Original Latin.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo....asp?ISBN=4871....

http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871873080

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/boo....asp?ISBN=4871....

http://www.amazon.com/dp/4871873099

Here are come corresponding pages:

"Nayan was in his tent dallying in bed with his wife". This is on page
116 of the Google books version.

The A.C. Moule version on page 196 says: "He was with his wife in bed
with her and was enjoying himself greatly with her".

"those who are approved are divided into groups of six , who serve the
Khan for three days and three nights ministering to all his needs and
he uses them according to his pleasure"

This is on page 123 of Google books. The equivalent is on page 206 of
the AC Moule version.

"The city is laid out in squares like a chess board". This is on page
129 of Google books and 213 of AC Moule

Here is a mystery:

"No woman of the world that is who prostitutes her body for money. But
they all live in the suburbs and there are so many of them that no one
could believe it. For I assure you that there are fully 20,000 of
them, all serving the needs of men for money.

This s on page 129 of Google books. *However, this entire paragraph is
missing from the AC Moule edition. The paragraph before it in on page
213 of AC Moule. All of page 130 in Google books seems to be missing
from AC Moule. The top of page 214 of AC Moule is the equivalent of
the first long paragraph on page 131 おf Google books.
Any solution to this would be appreciated.

Sam Sloan


maybe they are based on different manuscripts
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