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Old March 28th 04, 02:44 PM
Sam Sloan
 
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We should discuss, either now or later, what should have been done
differently to prevent this from happening.

I believe that because of this incident the provision that the winner
of the US Championship gets a spot on the Olympic team will be
dropped. That is a new rule anyway. A few years ago, an even lower
rated player, Elina Groberman, won the US Woman's Championship. She
has never even achieved a master rating, to this day. Yet, the
tournament was a round robin and the field fairly strong.

http://www.64.com/uscf/ratings/12659481

Elina was not offered a spot on the Olympic team.

Regarding a change on the pairing rules, class pairings are generally
used when the player in that class with the top score has no chance to
win a higher prize. Here, this would not have worked. Jennifer Shahade
was playing on board five and had a chance for a higher prize. If
class pairings had been used, Jennifer Shahade whould have been paired
against Irina Krush, Elena Donaldson Akhmylovshaia would have been
paired against Tsagaan Battsetseg and Camilla Baginskaite would have
been paired against Anna Hahn. In that case, Anna Hahn would have had
no mathematical chance for first prize, but the men would have
complained that they women were getting higher prizes than the men
were getting.

http://www.uschess.org/msa/XtblMain....19210-12659481

Now, take a look at the standings after the eighth round. See
http://www.af4c.org/oldsite/uschamps_results08.asp

From this, it is easy to see what happened. There were 14 players tied
in a group with 3 1/2 points. Anna Hahn was the lowest rated player in
that group. Because of being the lowest rated player she was dropped
to the next lower group. She should have played the highest rated
player in the next group down, which was Pixton, a 2400 player.
However, she had already played Pixton. She had also already played IM
Stanislav Kriventsov, who also had 3 points. Therefore, she was paired
against Groberman, rated 2164, who was the lowest rated player with 3
points. As a result, the five women who had the same score as Anna
Hahn or higher all had to play a player rated over 2400, but Anna Hahn
only had to play an expert. Because of this, Anna Hahn was the only
woman player to win her last round game. This leap-frogged her over
all the others, which is how she became US Woman's Champion while
playing the weakest field of anybody in the tournament.

A pairing expert should be consulted to see if there was any way to
avoid this situation. However, ultimately having women rated an
average of 2200 play in the same section with men rated an average of
2500 will produce some strange results. The only choices I see are
either to go back to seperate tournaments or to coinsider the title of
US Woman's Champion not to be the result of equal competition and not
entitled to a place on the Olympic team.

Sam Sloan

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Old March 29th 04, 12:08 AM
Tony D.
 
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snip

A pairing expert should be consulted to see if there was any way to
avoid this situation. However, ultimately having women rated an
average of 2200 play in the same section with men rated an average of
2500 will produce some strange results. The only choices I see are
either to go back to seperate tournaments or to coinsider the title of
US Woman's Champion not to be the result of equal competition and not
entitled to a place on the Olympic team.

Sam Sloan



Pairing expert? There is such a person?




Tony D.
NASCAR-It's the World Wide Wrestling of Auto Racing


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Old March 29th 04, 09:45 AM
Fifiela
 
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Pairing expert? There is such a person?

I am available now. I charge $1K per day plus expenses.
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Old March 29th 04, 02:24 PM
Angelo DePalma
 
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This whole mess could have been avoided by having clear rules on who gets
picked for the team.


"Sam Sloan" wrote in message
...
We should discuss, either now or later, what should have been done
differently to prevent this from happening.

I believe that because of this incident the provision that the winner
of the US Championship gets a spot on the Olympic team will be
dropped. That is a new rule anyway. A few years ago, an even lower
rated player, Elina Groberman, won the US Woman's Championship. She
has never even achieved a master rating, to this day. Yet, the
tournament was a round robin and the field fairly strong.

http://www.64.com/uscf/ratings/12659481

Elina was not offered a spot on the Olympic team.

Regarding a change on the pairing rules, class pairings are generally
used when the player in that class with the top score has no chance to
win a higher prize. Here, this would not have worked. Jennifer Shahade
was playing on board five and had a chance for a higher prize. If
class pairings had been used, Jennifer Shahade whould have been paired
against Irina Krush, Elena Donaldson Akhmylovshaia would have been
paired against Tsagaan Battsetseg and Camilla Baginskaite would have
been paired against Anna Hahn. In that case, Anna Hahn would have had
no mathematical chance for first prize, but the men would have
complained that they women were getting higher prizes than the men
were getting.

http://www.uschess.org/msa/XtblMain....19210-12659481

Now, take a look at the standings after the eighth round. See
http://www.af4c.org/oldsite/uschamps_results08.asp

From this, it is easy to see what happened. There were 14 players tied
in a group with 3 1/2 points. Anna Hahn was the lowest rated player in
that group. Because of being the lowest rated player she was dropped
to the next lower group. She should have played the highest rated
player in the next group down, which was Pixton, a 2400 player.
However, she had already played Pixton. She had also already played IM
Stanislav Kriventsov, who also had 3 points. Therefore, she was paired
against Groberman, rated 2164, who was the lowest rated player with 3
points. As a result, the five women who had the same score as Anna
Hahn or higher all had to play a player rated over 2400, but Anna Hahn
only had to play an expert. Because of this, Anna Hahn was the only
woman player to win her last round game. This leap-frogged her over
all the others, which is how she became US Woman's Champion while
playing the weakest field of anybody in the tournament.

A pairing expert should be consulted to see if there was any way to
avoid this situation. However, ultimately having women rated an
average of 2200 play in the same section with men rated an average of
2500 will produce some strange results. The only choices I see are
either to go back to seperate tournaments or to coinsider the title of
US Woman's Champion not to be the result of equal competition and not
entitled to a place on the Olympic team.

Sam Sloan



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Old March 29th 04, 06:43 PM
John Fernandez
 
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Sam Sloan wrote:

A pairing expert should be consulted to see if there was any way to
avoid this situation.


You mean IAs Carol Jarecki and Jonathan Berry aren't pairing experts?

John Fernandez


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Old March 29th 04, 08:23 PM
Fifiela
 
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Obviously, there was something wrong with this.

Yes, the Woman's Championship should not be selected with the Both Sexes
Championship.
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Old March 29th 04, 08:56 PM
David
 
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Default Woman's Round Robin



--
without the block
"Sam Sloan" wrote in message
...
On 29 Mar 2004 17:43:31 GMT,
eepmeep (John

The particular pairing in question was certainly unfair. Six players
were in the running for the US Woman's Championship. Five of them were
paired against International Masters and Grandmasters. The last one,
because of being the lowest rated and the odd number, was dropped down
and played a rated expert. As a result, the lowest rated player won
the title of US Woman's Champion.

Obviously, there was something wrong with this.


The rules of competition were set. The rules were followed. The result was
fair within the context of the rules.

If you want to suggest that the rules of competition were not appropriate
for a tournament that had a significant title riding on it, that very well
may be true. To characterize it as unfair stretches the meaning of the
word. Would it have been fair to change the pairing system in
mid-tournament? That is what would have been required to get a pairing that
would not include this anomoly. That would have been clearly unfair within
the context of the competition. Players entered the tournament knowing its
limitations. It is known that Swiss tournaments do not give absolute
results. This is an extreme example of why. It is a good example of why
Swiss tournaments may not be meaningful for high-stakes tournaments
(w/respect to titles, etc.)

However, the alternative is to have tournaments that either allow for a
smaller number of players or take an inordinate about of time to play. This
context must be included in any evaluation of what took place. Maybe the
selection of this competion type was reasonable, when all that rode on the
result was the title, and not the place on the Olympic team (the word all
being relative). In which case, the issue is not with the pairing, nor with
the selection of competition format, at the time it was selected.

The statement, "As a result, the lowest rated player won the title of US
Woman's Champion," implies that there is no reason for that individual to
ever compete with the expectation of winning. Repeat that argument through
the course of the entire wall chart, and the logical conclusion is that
tournaments should never take place; titles should be awarded on the basis
of rating only. This is clearly absurd.

David


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Old March 29th 04, 11:59 PM
Mike Murray
 
Posts: n/a
Default Woman's Round Robin

On Mon, 29 Mar 2004 11:56:05 -0800, "David"
wrote:

The statement, "As a result, the lowest rated player won the title of US
Woman's Champion," implies that there is no reason for that individual to
ever compete with the expectation of winning. Repeat that argument through
the course of the entire wall chart, and the logical conclusion is that
tournaments should never take place; titles should be awarded on the basis
of rating only. This is clearly absurd.


Good post. The world loves an underdog. Letting organizers,
promoters, bureaucrats, and competitors override publiished rules and
conditions after the fact is not only unfair, but a sure way to kill
interest in an event.
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