Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old June 3rd 04, 03:01 AM
ASCACHESS
 
Posts: n/a
Default Detatching Ratings From Membership

Once more, the USCF has taken what could be simple and turned it into a
Gordonian knot.

How can the burden of taking memberships be placed on TDs when some people pay
at the event with checks and others want to pay their USCF dues with credit
cards?

How does a TD pay online for a player if he pays with a check? Is the TD
expected to pay by credit card?
What happens if the check bounces? If the TD responsible for catching up to
the offender when USCF is forcing him into his position?

Chesslogic.com solved this problem in its entirety by taking money out of the
equation.
IF registration is free AND ratings are automatic and free, then why is all
this other nonsense necessary?

We lost money for many years on ratings.
Our method costs nothing.

What is truly apparent here is that USCF still does not have its act together.
No one is bothering to figure out the details of how the parts of the business
model work.

My suggestion is learn from the success of others.

Richard Peterson

  #2   Report Post  
Old June 3rd 04, 03:40 AM
Kevin L. Bachler
 
Posts: n/a
Default Detatching Ratings From Membership

In article , ASCACHESS says...

Once more, the USCF has taken what could be simple and turned it into a
Gordonian knot.

How can the burden of taking memberships be placed on TDs when some people pay
at the event with checks and others want to pay their USCF dues with credit
cards?


I don't see why this is an issue. The TD is a businessman. USCF is a vendor to
the TD and the player, the TD is a vendor to the player.


How does a TD pay online for a player if he pays with a check?


Have the player pay the TD instead.

Is the TD
expected to pay by credit card?


Sure, why not?

What happens if the check bounces?


The TD would either have to collect it, or would have to say that they don't
take checks.

A bounced check is a problem either way. USCF, from a distance, would seem to
have even less opportunity to collect on a bounced check than a local TD.

If the TD responsible for catching up to
the offender when USCF is forcing him into his position?


USCF forced nothing. The TD didn't have to take a check. Put in the TLA: CASH
ONLY.


Chesslogic.com solved this problem in its entirety by taking money out of the
equation.


Chesslogic isn't trying to accomplish the same goals as USCF.

IF registration is free AND ratings are automatic and free, then why is all
this other nonsense necessary?


Because the goals are different.


We lost money for many years on ratings.
Our method costs nothing.


In 20-50 years (or less), when Richard Peterson is gone, who will run chess
logic. Will a player still have a chess logic rating? Is there even a goal of
such? Does chess logic interface with an international org? Etc. It really is
2 different situations.

Yet here is USCF 65 years after Kirk Holland.


What is truly apparent here is that USCF still does not have its act together.
No one is bothering to figure out the details of how the parts of the business
model work.


It seems to me that this model works fine. It just requires that people learn
that they can't dump all the local problems on USCF. They have to be
responsible for them locally, and they will be personally put out if they are
not.


My suggestion is learn from the success of others.


Looks to me like they have.

Richard Peterson


Kevin L. Bachler

  #3   Report Post  
Old June 3rd 04, 06:16 AM
Angelo DePalma
 
Posts: n/a
Default Detatching Ratings From Membership


Yes, they've learned from one another by teaching themselves the value of
education.

"Kevin L. Bachler" wrote

My suggestion is learn from the success of others.


Looks to me like they have.



  #4   Report Post  
Old June 3rd 04, 09:50 AM
John Fernandez
 
Posts: n/a
Default Detatching Ratings From Membership

Kevin Bachler wrote:

I don't see why this is an issue. The TD is a businessman. USCF is a vendor
to
the TD and the player, the TD is a vendor to the player.


I try to have chess money deal with my personal money as little as possible.
Not only does this hurt that, it forces me to go above and beyond, charging
other people's things on my credit cards, accepting checks from other people
made out to ME, and so on and so forth. One, it makes my recordkeeping that
much more complex. Two, it puts ME on the hook if there are ****ups, checks
bouncing. Three, it costs ME time and effort, and probably money.

Have the player pay the TD instead.


So now I am cashing checks made out to me in my bank account? My accountant
will LOOOOOVE that.

Secondly - if there are payment issues, I'm on the hook. USCF's services are
bought and paid for by me, and I'M out the money. Yeah, really good freaking
deal.

Also - many people I know don't want to be writing checks to "John Fernandez"
if they are trying to buy USCF membership. They have recordkeeping too, and
want something a little more secure.

Is the TD
expected to pay by credit card?


Sure, why not?


Because I don't WANT the USCF charging stuff off my credit card?

The TD would either have to collect it, or would have to say that they don't
take checks.


So in other words, the USCF is forcing liability on the TD, and absolving
itself of the process.

A bounced check is a problem either way. USCF, from a distance, would seem
to
have even less opportunity to collect on a bounced check than a local TD.


At least the USCF is the one giving the services. If someone bounces a check,
you can stop giving them that service. At least USCF can cover itself in that
way.

And, how am I supposed to "collect" on it, if the person doesn't have any
interest in paying? Now I'm running around like a chicken head dealing with
some stupid guy who writes bad checks, when all I was doing was being a
middleman?

USCF forced nothing. The TD didn't have to take a check. Put in the TLA:
CASH
ONLY.


Okay, so more work for me. I get it.

John Fernandez



  #5   Report Post  
Old June 4th 04, 07:24 PM
Kevin L. Bachler
 
Posts: n/a
Default Detatching Ratings From Membership

In article , John Fernandez
says...

Kevin Bachler wrote:

I don't see why this is an issue. The TD is a businessman. USCF is a vendor
to
the TD and the player, the TD is a vendor to the player.


I try to have chess money deal with my personal money as little as possible.


Many other sole proprietorships follow the same principle, John.

Not only does this hurt that,


It does no such thing John. You may choose to intermingle the funds or not.
The choice is up to you.

it forces me to go above and beyond, charging
other people's things on my credit cards, accepting checks from other people
made out to ME, and so on and so forth.


Again, it does no such thing. You can send in paper. You can refuse to take
memberships. You can get a separate business credit card. All of these are
easy and viable solutions. I know many TD's who do these things now, including
myself.

One, it makes my recordkeeping that
much more complex.


On the contrary, you'll probably find it makes it simpler. Having a business
chess CC makes life much easier and breaks out all the expenses for that.

Two, it puts ME on the hook if there are ****ups, checks
bouncing.


LOL!! YOU WERE ON THE HOOK BEFORE, it's just that you could shirk the
responsibility and pass it off to USCF.

Being accountable is tough, ain't it?

Three, it costs ME time and effort, and probably money.


No change there. The only reason it wouldn't have before is if you pawned off
responsibilities to USCF that you had agreed to take on.


Have the player pay the TD instead.


So now I am cashing checks made out to me in my bank account? My accountant
will LOOOOOVE that.


He'll love it more if you have a separate account for it, as you should have had
anyway. No fee accts are very possible, BTW.



Secondly - if there are payment issues, I'm on the hook. USCF's services are
bought and paid for by me, and I'M out the money. Yeah, really good freaking
deal.


It's what it is now, John.


Also - many people I know don't want to be writing checks to "John Fernandez"
if they are trying to buy USCF membership. They have recordkeeping too, and
want something a little more secure.


Then they don't have to buy it from you. They can do it online days before the
tournament and bring their new ID with them.

Is the TD
expected to pay by credit card?


Sure, why not?


Because I don't WANT the USCF charging stuff off my credit card?


LOL. Get real.



The TD would either have to collect it, or would have to say that they don't
take checks.


So in other words, the USCF is forcing liability on the TD, and absolving
itself of the process.


No, the USCF is forcing you to be accountable for something that you already
agreed to be responsible for ANYWAY.



A bounced check is a problem either way. USCF, from a distance, would seem
to
have even less opportunity to collect on a bounced check than a local TD.


At least the USCF is the one giving the services.


Pardon me, so are you.

If someone bounces a check,
you can stop giving them that service. At least USCF can cover itself in that
way.


Like USCF is separate from the members?

And, how am I supposed to "collect" on it, if the person doesn't have any
interest in paying? Now I'm running around like a chicken head dealing with
some stupid guy who writes bad checks, when all I was doing was being a
middleman?

Refuse future entry. Talk to your state fed and other orgs about the same. Ask
USCF a clearinghouse that does the same by presenting a copy of the NSF check.

USCF forced nothing. The TD didn't have to take a check. Put in the TLA:
CASH
ONLY.


Okay, so more work for me. I get it.


The accountability you already agreed to and shirked, yes.


John Fernandez


You whined a lot and didn't offer much in the way of solutions, John. All you
offered was to pawn the problems back to USCF.

Kevin L. Bachler



  #6   Report Post  
Old June 4th 04, 08:22 PM
Ron Suarez
 
Posts: n/a
Default Detatching Ratings From Membership

I agree with the basic premise of Kevin. As a tournament director,
the individual is responsible, not the USCF.

I have run tournaments and indeed was "on the hook". When someone
wanted to pay for their membership, they usually included the payment
to me with the entry fee. I ended up writing a seperate check to the
USCF to cover the membership fees collected along with the other fees
I owed for the tournament. It would indeed be much easier to be able
to do this transaction, me the tournament director to the USCF, over
the internet with a credit card.

The tournament director or organizer, as the case may be, is indeed
the business person whether there is a profit or not.

If someone writes a bad check it would be easier for me to act on it
with the local authorities than expect the USCF to handle it across
state lines.

Ron Suarez
  #7   Report Post  
Old June 4th 04, 08:45 PM
Mike Nolan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Detatching Ratings From Membership

Ron Suarez writes:

I have run tournaments and indeed was "on the hook". When someone
wanted to pay for their membership, they usually included the payment
to me with the entry fee. I ended up writing a seperate check to the
USCF to cover the membership fees collected along with the other fees
I owed for the tournament. It would indeed be much easier to be able
to do this transaction, me the tournament director to the USCF, over
the internet with a credit card.


TD's (or more properly, affiliates, since TD's don't have the right
to sell memberships and take a discount but affiliates do) will still
be able to send in checks from members made out to the USCF.

As it stands, that may eliminate some but not all of the delay in
processing those memberships.

If we can convince Bill Goichberg of the trustworthiness of TD's and
affiliates, we may be able to issue new member ID's (at least from those
affiliates we trust) as soon as the membership data passes validation,
which should be within a few minutes of when it is submitted.

Note that the issue of TD's and/or affiliates paying with a credit
card is going to come up again when we talk about how the ratings fee
is to be paid, and a third time when we talk about TLA's, so it's
good to get a discussion of it going now.
--
Mike Nolan
  #8   Report Post  
Old June 4th 04, 11:44 PM
John Fernandez
 
Posts: n/a
Default Detatching Ratings From Membership

Kevin Bachler wrote:

LOL!! YOU WERE ON THE HOOK BEFORE, it's just that you could shirk the
responsibility and pass it off to USCF.

Being accountable is tough, ain't it?


No, we aren't. We never were.

If someone bounces a check to the USCF, then the USCF can cease to give them
the services. If the person ever comes back, whether to me or anyone else,
they've got to pay up the USCF fees. That's how the system works.

Under the new system, the USCF always gives them their services. Other TDs
never have a chance to collect from the guy, since they don't know. I have to
hope the guy is stupid enough to pay in MY events, when I can MAYBE tackle him
and get his money.

John Fernandez
  #10   Report Post  
Old June 5th 04, 12:39 AM
Mike Nolan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Detatching Ratings From Membership

Paul Rubin writes:

(Mike Nolan) writes:
: If we can convince Bill Goichberg of the trustworthiness of TD's and
: affiliates, we may be able to issue new member ID's (at least from those
: affiliates we trust) as soon as the membership data passes validation,
: which should be within a few minutes of when it is submitted.

:It should be pretty simple to flag "established" TD's as being able to
:do that. A TD becomes established after signing up X new members, and
:can lose the status if more than N payments don't clear properly, etc.

That's pretty much what I had in mind, plus a maybe some peer pressure
/guilt factor stuff. :-)
--
Mike Nolan
Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Confronting Reality WPraeder rec.games.chess.politics (Chess Politics) 0 April 24th 04 12:14 AM
Free Program to compute your ICC ratings before a game. Dr. David Kirkby rec.games.chess.computer (Computer Chess) 10 April 14th 04 06:25 PM
Online Cheating with Computers and Ratings Phil Innes rec.games.chess.politics (Chess Politics) 44 January 14th 04 02:22 PM
Membership special / auto renew Don Mihokovich rec.games.chess.politics (Chess Politics) 12 September 15th 03 09:00 PM
Tim's Dues Proposal. Will it Fly? Bruce Draney rec.games.chess.politics (Chess Politics) 50 September 2nd 03 01:27 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:18 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2019 ChessBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Chess"

 

Copyright © 2017