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Old July 3rd 04, 03:11 AM
Parrthenon
 
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Default Vadim Milov Speaks Out On Racism !!

Morten Sand was considered one of the REFORMERS in FIDE, an improvement on
the likes of a Makropoulos or a Ghobash. Maybe he is. But he is still a
snake. How exquisitely low. One notes that he does not dispute FIDE having
sent the invitation on the day of arrival.

John Fernandez will note, correctly in a warped sense, that Milov could
have gotten to Tripoli SOMEHOW. If it were too late to book a commercial
flight, he could have raced by car, perhaps overnight, and hired a fast boat to
get across the Mediterranean. Something like that. And there would be some
small amount of truth in the claim.

Still, on the whole, we can say that FIDE is ever so low.

Perhaps the USCF could enter the suit in some fashion? Perhaps Sam Sloan
or someone here could address the legalities. Perhaps the ACP will help out in
the suit. It would be high time for the GMs to take a stand.



__________________________________________________ ______________
"FIDE has made its decision. Players who refuse to be drug tested will not be
able to play chess." -- Dr. Press, co-founder of the FIDE Medical Commission.
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Old July 3rd 04, 09:53 PM
Nick
 
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Default Vadim Milov Speaks Out On Racism !!

(Parrthenon) wrote:
Morten Sand was considered one of the REFORMERS in FIDE, an improvement on
the likes of a Makropoulos or a Ghobash. Maybe he is. But he is still a
snake. How exquisitely low.


Larry Parr's personal name-calling against Morten Sand is irrelevant
to the facts of the dispute between GM Vadim Milov and FIDE.

One notes that he does not dispute FIDE having sent the invitation
on the day of arrival.


In my view, with regard to any legal dispute, it's important to allow both
sides to represent themselves fully before making any judgment on the case.

One notes that Larry Parr has *completely snipped* what Morten Sand wrote
(which may be read in my earlier post) on behalf of FIDE in response to
GM Vadim Milov's accusation.

John Fernandez will note, correctly in a warped sense, that Milov could have
gotten to Tripoli SOMEHOW. If it were too late to book a commercial flight,
he could have raced by car, perhaps overnight, and hired a fast boat to get
across the Mediterranean. Something like that. And there would be some
small amount of truth in the claim.


Here's what Morten Sand wrote (which was in the text of the linked article
cited in my earlier post) in response (which Larry Parr has ignored):

"The delay of Mr. Milov's invitation was related to the fact that Mr. Milov
did not send his passport details within the given deadline. Information
regarding visa and passport details was sent to all the participants and
their federations a long time ago, and this information has also been
available on the FIDE website.

The invitation was sent to Mr. Milov just a few hours after midnight on
June 18th and as Mr. Milov had already been informed in the evening of June 17
by the FIDE representatives that the invitation was on its way, there was
absolutely no need for him to cancel his flight. Even after the cancellation
it still would have been no problem for Mr. Milov to reach Tripoli in time.
The FIDE Secretariat in Tripoli managed to find several flights, which had made
it possible to make the trip to Tripoli in time. FIDE also offered to pay for
flight costs and *even to postpone Mr. Milov's first game if necessary*.

Despite all these efforts made by the organizer and the FIDE Secretariat,
Mr. Milov still decided not to travel to Tripoli. ..."

--Morten Sand, on behalf of FIDE (Athens, 29 June 2004)

John Fernandez has written (elsewhere in this RGCP thread) that GM Vadim Milov
was involved in another scheduling dispute with FIDE about the start of
the FIDE World Championship tournament in Las Vegas. (Surely the Libyans
cannot be fairly blamed for GM Vadim Milov's complaints in Las Vegas.)

"To clarify what happened with Milov in Vegas--there was some confusion in
his match with Macieja, as Milov thought he was going to be passed through
to Round 2. Milov showed up, quite in a combative mood (I was in the office
when he showed up), and so on and so forth. Eventually, *they just had the
match delayed by a day to allow Milov to play.* It was a clear case then,
in my mind, of a player (GM Vadim Milov) simply not paying attention to
what was happening."
--John Fernandez (30 June 2004)

Given *the fact that FIDE previously had postponed* GM Vadim Milov's first
game in the Las Vegas tournament, Morten Sand's statement that FIDE was ready
"to postpone Mr. Milov's first game (in the Tripoli tournament) if necessary"
seems credible enough to me. FIDE had done that favour for GM Vadim Milov
before in Las Vegas; why would FIDE not be ready to do it again in Tripoli?

Evidently, at least according to what John Fernandez and Morten Sand have
written, GM Vadim Milov seems to have a record of "simply not paying (enough)
attention to what was happening" (to quote John Fernandez) about his travel
arrangements and then attempting to blame FIDE for his ensuing difficulties.

Still, on the whole, we can say that FIDE is ever so low.


What FIDE may or may not have done wrong in making its other decisions seems
irrelevant to the *specific facts* of its current dispute with GM Vadim Milov.

Perhaps Larry Parr should be thanked for corroborating that he evidently
has a closed mind in this case.

Perhaps the USCF could enter the suit in some fashion?
Perhaps Sam Sloan or someone here could address the legalities. ...


By extending his invitation *by name to Sam Sloan* (Would Sam Sloan be a
qualified lawyer in this case?) to 'address the legalities', Larry Parr
seems to have corroborated his evident trolling intentions in this thread.

--Nick
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Old July 4th 04, 11:24 PM
John Fernandez
 
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Default Vadim Milov Speaks Out On Racism !!

Nick Bourbaki wrote:

The invitation was sent to Mr. Milov just a few hours after midnight on
June 18th and as Mr. Milov had already been informed in the evening of June
17
by the FIDE representatives that the invitation was on its way, there was
absolutely no need for him to cancel his flight. Even after the cancellation
it still would have been no problem for Mr. Milov to reach Tripoli in time.
The FIDE Secretariat in Tripoli managed to find several flights, which had
made
it possible to make the trip to Tripoli in time. FIDE also offered to pay
for
flight costs and *even to postpone Mr. Milov's first game if necessary*.


I'm simply not sure why Milov is the one with the problem. In the end Milov
chose not to go, and was offered plenty of ways and accomodations.

If anything, the actual problem comes down to the ISRAELI players. There's a
much clearer line of roadblocks being put up in their case. I'm rather
surprised we're hearing from Milov, and not from Gelfand, Sutovskij, Smirin,
etc. Those guys really DO have a case.

John Fernandez
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Old July 6th 04, 11:57 PM
Nick
 
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Default Vadim Milov Speaks Out On Racism !!

eepmeep (John Fernandez) wrote:
Nick Bourbaki wrote:


For the record, what John Fernandez has 'quoted' (below) from my post were
*not my original words*, and John Fernandez has *not* properly attributed
those words--as he should have done--to their writer, Morten Sand of FIDE.

Here's a link (which I cited earlier) to Morten Sand's complete statement
of 29 June 2004 on behalf of FIDE in response to GM Vadim Milov:
http://www.chesscenter.com/twic/fide010704.html

(snipped by John Fernandez)
The invitation was sent to Mr. Milov just a few hours after midnight on
June 18th and as Mr. Milov had already been informed in the evening of
June 17 by the FIDE representatives that the invitation was on its way,
there was absolutely no need for him to cancel his flight. Even after the
cancellation it still would have been no problem for Mr. Milov to reach
Tripoli in time. The FIDE Secretariat in Tripoli managed to find several
flights, which had made it possible to make the trip to Tripoli in time.
FIDE also offered to pay for flight costs and *even to postpone Mr. Milov's
first game if necessary*.
(snipped by John Fernandez)


Again, those words (above) were written by Morten Sand of FIDE, *not* by me
(though the asterisks were mine). My quotation of Morten Sand's statement
does *not* necessarily imply any agreement or disagreement with it.

I'm simply not sure why Milov is the one with the problem.


The assertion that 'Milov is the one with the problem' seems to be
Larry Parr's position in this thread, but it is *not* mine, as anyone
who has read my earlier posts in this thread should be able to understand.

In the end Milov chose not to go, and was offered plenty of ways and
accomodations.


According to Morten Sand of FIDE, GM Vadim Milov had sufficient opportunity
to participate, if he had chosen to do so, in the FIDE tournament in Tripoli.
I have previously noted that FIDE had consented to postpone GM Vadim Milov's
first game after another scheduling mishap for him in the FIDE tournament in
Las Vegas, so I find it credible enough that FIDE would have been ready again
to postpone his first game in Tripoli if necessary.

If anything, the actual problem comes down to the ISRAELI players.


Some wilfully ignorant or simply dishonest troll(s) have made and even been
reiterating the false statement that all Jewish players were excluded from
the FIDE tournament in Tripoli. In fact, there were at least several players
of Jewish heritage who participated in the FIDE tournament in Tripoli.

Evidently, many ignorant persons tend to conflate being Israeli and being
Jewish. Most Jews in the world today are not citizens of Israel (though
Israel's 'Law of Return' permits any Jew to become a citizen of Israel),
and many citizens of Israel (Arabs, Druze, etc.) are not Jewish.

There's a much clearer line of roadblocks being put up in their case.
I'm rather surprised we're hearing from Milov, and not from Gelfand,
Sutovskij, Smirin, etc. Those guys really DO have a case.


I am quite critical of Israel's policies against the Palestinians,
yet I have played chess with Israeli players. I do not stereotype
all Israeli Jews as alike, and I do not stereotype all Arabs or Muslims
(most Muslims are not Arabs; and many Arabs are not Muslims) as alike.

With regard to the earlier FIDE world championship tournament in Las Vegas,
John Fernandez has written that IM Bagheri of Iran and IM Hakki of Syria
were excluded by the United States government (which denied them visas to
enter the United States) from participating, evidently for no other reasons
than their unwelcome nationalities. As far as I can tell, there seems to
be a comparative lack of objections by the apparently 'patriotically correct'
American writers in the chess newsgroups about the exclusion of players from
Iran or Syria (or perhaps some other countries perceived as hostile to the
United States). (Of course, most Iranians are not Arabs.)

"The incapacity of the United States to see Arabs as other human beings
is consistent with the ebbing of universalism within American society."
--Emmanuel Todd (After the Empire, p. 118)

(Emmanuel Todd is a French writer, who works at the National Institute for
Demographic Studies in Paris. By the way, he has described himself as being
of Jewish heritage.)

--Nick
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Old July 7th 04, 08:20 AM
Jürgen R.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vadim Milov Speaks Out On Racism !!

On 04 Jul 2004 22:24:42 GMT, eepmeep (John
Fernandez) wrote:

Nick Bourbaki wrote:

The invitation was sent to Mr. Milov just a few hours after midnight on
June 18th and as Mr. Milov had already been informed in the evening of June
17
by the FIDE representatives that the invitation was on its way, there was
absolutely no need for him to cancel his flight. Even after the cancellation
it still would have been no problem for Mr. Milov to reach Tripoli in time.
The FIDE Secretariat in Tripoli managed to find several flights, which had
made
it possible to make the trip to Tripoli in time. FIDE also offered to pay
for
flight costs and *even to postpone Mr. Milov's first game if necessary*.


I'm simply not sure why Milov is the one with the problem. In the end Milov
chose not to go, and was offered plenty of ways and accomodations.


How do you know this? I see no reason to take the FIDE statement at
face value (and several reason not to do so) and discount Milov's
claim (which, of course, may be questioned).

If anything, the actual problem comes down to the ISRAELI players. There's a
much clearer line of roadblocks being put up in their case. I'm rather
surprised we're hearing from Milov, and not from Gelfand, Sutovskij, Smirin,
etc. Those guys really DO have a case.


You are being extremely naive. These days you can easily get into
24-hour hassles even on the Canadian border if you have the wrong
nationality, name or appearance.


John Fernandez




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Old July 8th 04, 04:07 AM
John Fernandez
 
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Default Vadim Milov Speaks Out On Racism !!

Jürgen R. wrote:

How do you know this?


Because FIDE has made the same accomodation for Milov in the past? Because they
made a similar accomodation for Topalov?

I see no reason to take the FIDE statement at
face value (and several reason not to do so) and discount Milov's
claim (which, of course, may be questioned).


I see no reason to simply assume everything Milov writes is true and everything
FIDE writes as wrong. That's going to get you in trouble.

You are being extremely naive. These days you can easily get into
24-hour hassles even on the Canadian border if you have the wrong
nationality, name or appearance.


No doubt.

John Fernandez
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Old July 8th 04, 04:58 AM
Jürgen R.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Vadim Milov Speaks Out On Racism !!

On 08 Jul 2004 03:07:36 GMT, eepmeep (John
Fernandez) wrote:

Jürgen R. wrote:

How do you know this?


Because FIDE has made the same accomodation for Milov in the past? Because they
made a similar accomodation for Topalov?


No - of course, this makes it possible but not certain. I don't need
to explain, I hope, what is meant by 'knowing' something?

I see no reason to take the FIDE statement at
face value (and several reason not to do so) and discount Milov's
claim (which, of course, may be questioned).


I see no reason to simply assume everything Milov writes is true and everything
FIDE writes as wrong.


Right - I don't either; nor vice versa. It is entirely possible that
Fide is being disingenuous.

It is not inconceivable that an agreement was made to publically state
that Israeli's were - what shall we call it? - 'welcome' at the
tournament, at least not categorically excluded (despite the reported
statement of Ghadafi Jr.), and at the same time make participation
administratively impossible. After all, given the situation, nobody
with an Israeli passport was likely to be brazen enough to attend.

It is also possible that Milov never intended to go and intentionally
provoked the situation...

That's going to get you in trouble.






You are being extremely naive. These days you can easily get into
24-hour hassles even on the Canadian border if you have the wrong
nationality, name or appearance.


No doubt.

John Fernandez


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Old July 8th 04, 06:31 AM
John Fernandez
 
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Default Vadim Milov Speaks Out On Racism !!

Jürgen R. wrote:

No - of course, this makes it possible but not certain. I don't need
to explain, I hope, what is meant by 'knowing' something?


I can't be 100% certain, of course, since for all I know FIDE *could* have this
special thing against Milov and have done something here. However, it is
reasonable to infer from past behavior (most especially allowing MILOV of all
people to delay the round because of travel problems before), that they would
have been willing to do the same.

However, FIDE isn't in control of customs and immigration passport control.

Right - I don't either; nor vice versa. It is entirely possible that
Fide is being disingenuous.


I've spoken to many players who were IN Libya. Das was likely going to play a
delayed game just like Topalov did. Of course, his opponent never showed.

It is not inconceivable that an agreement was made to publically state
that Israeli's were - what shall we call it? - 'welcome' at the
tournament, at least not categorically excluded (despite the reported
statement of Ghadafi Jr.), and at the same time make participation
administratively impossible. After all, given the situation, nobody
with an Israeli passport was likely to be brazen enough to attend.


This is possible, and if so should be met with extreme censure - you'll likely
see a lot of powerful federations like the Russian, American and Israeli
Federations cause a huge problem about this in that case.

It is also possible that Milov never intended to go and intentionally
provoked the situation...


Also possible.

I think it's between, personally. I think Milov wasn't huge on going, and I
think FIDE and Libya helped give him a convenient reason to not show up. But
that's just me.

John Fernandez
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